The other issue with the C200

[OliKMIA]

11 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

26MP? Makes no sense. It's been nearly 6 years since the old 6D, they have to get it right.

Don't underestimate Canon ! "See impossible". I'm sure they can fuck it up big time: 6 or 8 mpx bump, a flip screen, 1080/60 and they are good until 2022...
 

[mercer]

If the 6D2 rumor is true, then they might as well skip 4K altogether and go with 6K for the rumored FF mirrorless. LOL. 

I think the fact remains, no matter how often it needs to be said, Canon remains number one without catering to a hobbyist/enthusiast video minority... so why dump money into it? If it was affecting their bottom line, they would put the money into it. They exist to make money for their shareholders. Yada, yada, yada.

[yoclay]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Your whole premise is based on a slice of the market that isn't representative.

Ask any of the distributors, retailers and rental shops and they will tell you that the majority are using the C200 as their main rig.

That RED, C700, F55, Alexa users will consider it a B-camera does not make it "Not an A-cam" in the eyes of the rest of the pro video market.

I know Cinema5D think $8000 is little money... all those ads are clearly paying well.

For the rest of us it's an A-camera.

They won't say anything yet because the C200 hasn't even reached their premises.

The majority of rental houses would not say the C200 is an A-Cam by the way.  No way.  That's like saying people are currently renting the C100 as an A-Cam.  For that it would need at least a broadcast quality codec and for the moment that is not the case.  This is not an accident.

The vast majority of rentals are for cameras that people cannot afford themselves.  The average price point for a camera rental package is 10-30K.  Otherwise people just buy the cams.  The C300's go out all the time.  They are one of the most popular cameras out there for rental.  The cost of renting a C300 is not very different than renting a C100, so why go with the latter ?

I know this because I worked in rental houses.  And by the way, the camera is to a rental package what the burger is to Mcdonalds.  An excuse to sell the fries.

It's all the extras around the cameras which people cannot afford where they make their money.

In larger markets like Los Angeles and New York by the way, the majority of owner operators own at least a RED Epic.  It's practically expected by clients these days.

That's minimum 15K.  Sad but true (I pretty much hate RED).

You spoke about the rest of the video market.  The average level of camera for working professionals for local spots is at least a Sony FS7.  Configured that's 10K.

That is because it is broadcast spec and has the minimum bells and whistles.  The same reason why they might own a C300 as well.

Showing up with only a GH5 or an A7SII would be a big no-no for even local producers.

 

By the way, I haven't worked for Cinema5D in about 4 years, so frankly do not have a clue what their thinking is around the subject.

 

[JuankyAlvarez]

23 hours ago, tugela said:

Why not just buy a second C200, if that is what you use to earn a living?

This does not seem like a real problem to me.

I totally agree with you.

C200 can be both A and B camera. If you need large high quality RAW image, * C200 * Need a 4K image with practical data rate (the same as A7s2 and other DSLRs...)? well the C200 has that too. I don't get the point of the article. The C200 is Canon's B-Cam solution for the likes of C300 Mk2 and even for itself.

Where the C200 fails to delivers is a medium robust codec like a 4K 10 bit 422 @ 225mbps... they says something about a future update but nothing specific in this matter.

[DBounce]

I'm for C200 A cam and C200B as B cam, assuming the 1DXMk2 is out of the pictures for some reason. Hell Canon even call it the C200B... Can you take the hint!

[noone]

Wow, for me this is simply about 4k (something I don't need) but it really has been eye opening looking..

Just looking to see what 4k cameras exist and on one of Canon's Australian sites at least, they had a feature selector and the option available was full HD! (have there been any recent cameras from anyone for serious -or even not so serious video that DIDN'T have full HD)?

Meanwhile Sony, in just the FF A7/A9 series alone has what, seven different cameras that can do 4k in some form somehow (if you include the ones that need a external recorder and the seldom mentioned S3C and SC3a) and not to mention all the others too.     Even in handycam's Sony has several 4k versions (as do some of the other makers).

Looking at some video store sites and what is available, there also a few other specialty 4k cameras from other makers and a lot of those seem to also have an Exmor sensor too.

Seems to me that for some players 4k is standard but for Canon it is still something exotic.

 

[Damphousse]

Seems like renting is in order.  You can own a C200 and rent additional C200s as necessary.

I shoot as a hobbyist on a BMPCC and I am really not seeing results from RX10s or G7s that rival a BMPCC as far as color and flexibility.  I lust after 4k but I don't want to give up the gorgeous raw image the BMPCC spits out.

Canon definitely has an issue but the GH4 isn't perfect either.

2 hours ago, yoclay said:

The vast majority of rentals are for cameras that people cannot afford themselves.  The average price point for a camera rental package is 10-30K.  Otherwise people just buy the cams.  The C300's go out all the time.  They are one of the most popular cameras out there for rental.  The cost of renting a C300 is not very different than renting a C100, so why

 

So are C300 MK II rentals doing well?

We were told they weren't renting very well.

[gt3rs]

So the 5D/1DxII DCI 4k 4:2:2 8bit MJPG at 500 Mbits that you can edit in real time without transcoding even on a notebook it is insane but at the same time everybody is crying because the C200 does not have a DCI 4k 4:2:2 10bit at 400 Mbits…. and also everybody is eagerly awaiting the GH5 firmware that will allow an edit ready 4k 10bit 4:2:2 at 400 Mbits. But hey 400 Mbits is perfect and 500 is insane...... If you want to edit ready 4k without transcoding in a good quality you will end up with at around 400 Mbits anyhow….

IMO the best B cam for the C200 is another C200 or C200B. It is a big advantage to have two cameras the same that you know the pro and cons, the menus, the customization, the button layout, the expect output, the sensor characteristic, same DOF, same lens and crop factor, NDs, the AF behavior etc… Additionally you have the same battery, same media, same LCD  etc… so if something breaks or is forgotten you mostly have a second one with you. Personally I already hate switching between 5D and 1Dx… So you will save time, have a perfect backup and probably at the save money.

In my case if I will buy the C200 the B cam would be my 1Dx II because I use it a lot for photography and in particular for action photography but if I would only do video probably I would buy a C200 and C200B.

If budget is an issue a C200 and a used 5D IV would be the best compromise IMO.

[HockeyFan12]

Again, I don't see the issue. If your client is asking for 4k for a web spot your budget is probably at least $300,000 for the spot. You can afford to rent two C200s for that.  The cost of 4k post will be the bigger issue.

If it's for personal use, then you can buy a more prosumer system and deal with ergonomic and workflow compromises. The image quality will be close enough. It's not like the GH5 is a B camera for the EVA, either. Not remotely. The EVA is the B cam for the Varicam. And that system is even more expensive!

To that extent, I see the C200 more as the B cam and the C700 (which doesn't seem so great and the Varicam seems nicer imo but whatever) as the A cam.

I think the question of what B cam to use with the C200 is another c200.

[noone]

58 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

So the 5D/1DxII DCI 4k 4:2:2 8bit MJPG at 500 Mbits that you can edit in real time without transcoding even on a notebook it is insane but at the same time everybody is crying because the C200 does not have a DCI 4k 4:2:2 10bit at 400 Mbits…. and also everybody is eagerly awaiting the GH5 firmware that will allow an edit ready 4k 10bit 4:2:2 at 400 Mbits. But hey 400 Mbits is perfect and 500 is insane...... If you want to edit ready 4k without transcoding in a good quality you will end up with at around 400 Mbits anyhow….

.

I thought it was more than that.

It doesn't (yet) have a middle codec for even HD?       They are adding the higher bit rates for both full HD and 4k later but not so much is known about what they will be or when exactly I think.

A little bit like if the A7s/A7s ii were sold with AVCHD only with the promise of XAVC-S the following year sometime??   who would have got those?

[jcs]

Without pixel peeping and YouTube/online-streaming compression, it's hard to tell the difference between 1DX II 4K and 1DX II 1080p (ALL-I ~100Mbps) post sharpened + fine grain noise (watch in 4K; even harder to tell when watched in 1080p): 

I find the stock 1DX II picture styles don't look as good as the 5D3 (different color science and sensors), however you can tweak the stock picture styles or create all new ones which work really well. When targeting 1080p/online-streaming and doing long takes/events, 1DX II 1080p works well and the ~100Mbps ALL-I files are easily manageable (can use IPB to get even smaller file sizes. I would normally use the A7S II for this kind of event, however the Sony was fired after it overheated in a 74F room + the 1DX II has working/usable autofocus): 

While the 1DX II can make a fine B cam for the C200 (and C300 II in our case), for the price if not also needing stills, the C200 is a superior B cam for video (and A cam if using RAW/external and if/when Canon allows 10-bit 422 internally).

 

[jhnkng]

10 hours ago, yoclay said:

The whole premise of this article is that the price point of the cam is as an A-Cam is false.

The C200 is a B-Cam.

Not the other way around.

Despite the fact that the price point of the camera may be expensive for some people here does not make it an A-Cam.

Canon have a C300 and 700 series out there that shoot 4K.  The C100 does not. The C200 does for half the cost. That spells B-Cam.

Making the assumption that they should now come up with a B-Cam for their B-Cam strikes me as a bit silly.

According to newshooter.com:
"At a briefing last week Canon were adamant that it’s not a replacement for the C100 MkII, rather an upgrade path for C100 users who want more from their camera; and a potential B or C cam for C300 MkII and C700 users."

So it's a bit of both, which makes sense. It's certainly at the top of my list for an A Cam, and I can absolutely see C200s being used as B and C Cams for productions using the C700. Having DPAF would make it invaluable for any production using a gimbal, so I expect to see a ton of these around. I called a couple of places yesterday here in Sydney and they all said they've sold their allotments of C200s already.

 

8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Your whole premise is based on a slice of the market that isn't representative.

Ask any of the distributors, retailers and rental shops and they will tell you that the majority are using the C200 as their main rig.

That RED, C700, F55, Alexa users will consider it a B-camera does not make it "Not an A-cam" in the eyes of the rest of the pro video market.

I know Cinema5D think $8000 is little money... all those ads are clearly paying well.

For the rest of us it's an A-camera.

But $8000 isn't that much money, considering how much you'd charge it out for on a job, amortised over 5 years. The C200 retails for $12000AUD, local rental houses still charge about $300/day for a C300 (mk1). So assuming I can charge the same for a C200, I'll have it paid off in 40 jobs. I'm mainly a photographer and even I can manage that. For a production house or a working pro that needs a camera like the C200 as a B Cam, that's cheap as.
 

[Chris Sully Cortez]

Could not freaking agree more with this article. Pros don't want to have to rely on expensive slow headache inducing workflows and B and C options we need shit that's fast, cheap, and looks damn good without making us vomit every time we want to do a multicamera shoot. EVA1 with 3x GH5's sounds much more practical to me.... if Canon only has Dual Pixel AF to offer, and good color, but everything else is shit, then I'm always going to pick the equipment that makes my job and life easier. I want to work smarter, not harder Canon. 

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, Chris Sully Cortez said:

Could not freaking agree more with this article. Pros don't want to have to rely on expensive slow headache inducing workflows and B and C options we need shit that's fast, cheap, and looks damn good without making us vomit every time we want to do a multicamera shoot. EVA1 with 3x GH5's sounds much more practical to me.... if Canon only has Dual Pixel AF to offer, and good color, but everything else is shit, then I'm always going to pick the equipment that makes my job and life easier. I want to work smarter, not harder Canon. 

Everything else is $h!t? Really? So lowlight is shit? Lens selection, battery life, durability,  support, picture quality? You seem mighty convinced of the EVA1 for a camera that no one has seen a single frame from. I think I'll  hold judgement for when it's  released, as talking out of ones ass always stinks.

[Inazuma]

Just read your article on this topic Andrew. Its funny that there is no good 4k B cam to the C200.  Even funnier that in 2017, there is also no good 1080p B cam to the C100/300. 

[jonpais]

9 hours ago, DBounce said:

Everything else is $h!t? Really? So lowlight is shit? Lens selection, battery life, durability,  support, picture quality? You seem mighty convinced of the EVA1 for a camera that no one has seen a single frame from. I think I'll  hold judgement for when it's  released, as talking out of ones ass always stinks.

I wouldn't even dignify Mr. Chris Sully Cortez's comment with a response.

[Oliver Daniel]

I think it's important to clarify that this is not a Canon bashing thread.

I started it by attempting to find out if using the C200 was viable as an A-cam when considering other smaller, well featured cameras getting the rest of the shots as B and C. Like the FS5 with Sony Alpha cameras. 

This also only relates to professional video production where a streamlined workflow is very important to save time and have all bass covered. 

My concluding thoughts are that you could use the C200 with the 5D Mk IV and XC10/15 - if you're willing to sacrifice higher frame rates, use heavily cropped sensors and work with data hungry file sizes. What you gain is fantastic colour and reliability, amongst other strong workhorse needs such as awesome build quality. It could be a mouth watering package for some shooters.

With Sony for instance, you get the HFR, high dynamic range and all those other innovative goodies such as electronic vari-ND on the FS5 and IBIS - plus far more bodies to choose from. However the picture needs more work, and lacks in that beautiful motion "feel" which Canon gets right. For some, that could be the deciding factor. I wish I had it sometimes. 

It's Sony's move next. They could put the A9 autofocus in the FS5 II or the A7S III may have 4K 60p. I bet the colour will be further improved. It's worth waiting. As much as I adore the Canon image, I can't help think that Sony may not be far behind in the near future. 

[hmcindie]

18 hours ago, Chris Sully Cortez said:

EVA1 with 3x GH5's sounds much more practical to me...

That doesn't sound practical at all, but have fun with that haha!

[wolf33d]

On 6/16/2017 at 0:12 PM, wolf33d said:

@Andrew Reid the end of your article made me smile because Canon Rumors just announced that 6DII that will be soon announced (2 weeks) won't have 4K.

Another joke from Canon, yes I know. Hopefully though Canon Rumors are wrong, but even if they are, it's not gonna have a better codec and 4K than 5D4. End of the year or early 2018 Canon will release a FF mirorless but i am afraid this doesn't change their strategy regarding video.  

 

On 6/16/2017 at 0:30 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Not a very good rumour. Not their highest rating for the source and specs sounds made up. 26MP? Makes no sense.

It's been nearly 6 years since the old 6D, they have to get it right.

 

Well, rumor now updated to CR3 rating. 1080P it looks. Let's see in 2 weeks.

[HockeyFan12]

4 hours ago, hmcindie said:

That doesn't sound practical at all, but have fun with that haha!

Same. I can't imagine what kind of shoot would be best covered by multi cam cinematic coverage like that (maybe the Hobbit?). But if it works for him it works for him; there are as many different needs as there are camera systems out there to fill them.