Canon 6D Mark II lacks 4K video - What were they thinking?!

[Trek of Joy]

On 6/22/2017 at 2:35 PM, Michal Gajdoš said:

You are right. But that does not mean they might be wrong you know. Also Kodak did their research, did their decisions based on that, and were number one... at least for some time Don't think you can't fall just because you're too big, it happened before and can easily happen again. I hate to say that, but look at GoPro   

Analogies like this make no sense. Gopro essentially makes one thing. Kodak essentially made two - film and cheap cameras. Competition and market shifts killed both.

Canon's other divisions generate more revenue than cameras, even if they lose market share (which hasn't happened, Sony's gains are replacing the other's losses) they still have other divisions that continue to be revenue drivers. As much as people keep wanting to call Canon the next Kodak, its simply not true. SMH.

[Stab]

Great! Less competition in image quality from my competitors for me! Go Canon/Nikon!

[Andrew Reid]

Toshiba had a very profitable nuclear business.

And now, that has sunk the entire company and they are selling off their arms and legs.

Canon are conservative and sensible, but things can and do go wrong with big companies no matter how profitable they are.

Don't take profit alone as a sign of a healthy business.

VW were profitable... And in the background, floating the regulations.

[PeterB]

On 2017-6-25 at 10:14 PM, Kisaha said:

You just don't "patch" 4K video, are you nuts?! It needs different hardware, thermal solutions, and a lot of different things. 4K isn't just a name, is a very demanding procedure with much more information and needs top of the line processors, chips, cooling solutions, input/output, etc.

Also, I don't understand how you go from the 6D to C200, and back and forth! You have to know what you really want, access the market, and then go buy whatever works for you. An entry level full frame camera, and a middling S35 cinema camera are very far apart. Check the XC series, great little cameras there, or the JVC LS300, if you do not want to pay much.

the 6D you are describing for 2000$ would have cut 2/3 of 5D sales instantly. The problem was the 5DmkIV. It is a "lesser" (to a degree) video camera, so everything below that have to have much worst specs than a 3500$ - middle tier, to be honest -  photo camera.

In my opinion these cameras aren't true hybrids (so, I don't care), are 80-90% photo cameras, and that is fine with me, and I look elsewhere. The only big hope for Canon is the M series, and they are very far behind completion there too (and with new cameras such the 6DmkII, I do not see a real great M camera any time soon.)

P.S I just bought another NX1, 28megapxls and 1.5X crop factor. It also has 4K, 120frames slow mo etc.

You don't patch in 4k if the hardware isn't capable. but I suspect it will be using much the same (or updated) internals as the 5d. chances are the 6d mkii is more than capable of 4k but canon will choose to limit it software wise (and not for the first time). I currently own the a7sii and blackmagic pocket camera (I've been aware of the jvc 300 for some time, it still lacks auto-focus like the c200. I would sooner buy a secondhand 4.6k ursa mini). For gimbal and glidecam shots I don't always have a 1st ac and wireless follow focus on set, so I'll often end up using the sony for it's 1080p face detect auto-focus (even though I prefer the look of the blackmagic).

Very few people are buying 5dmk iv for video, it's mainly photographers. putting 4k in the 6d will have very little effect on 5d sales as most people buying the 5d are photographers (video people like myself ended up picking up the sony a7sii in the same price range). saying including the same 4k in the 6d as the 5d would cut 2/3 the buyers off the 5d is suggesting that 2/3 the people buying the 5dmk iv are doing so for video, which seems unlikely. however canons cheaper cameras like the 80d have a very large video user base and a 1.6x crop 4k on the 6d mkii could extend that user base.

 

[Kisaha]

3 hours ago, PeterB said:

You don't patch in 4k if the hardware isn't capable. but I suspect it will be using much the same (or updated) internals as the 5d. chances are the 6d mkii is more than capable of 4k but canon will choose to limit it software wise (and not for the first time). I currently own the a7sii and blackmagic pocket camera (I've been aware of the jvc 300 for some time, it still lacks auto-focus like the c200. I would sooner buy a secondhand 4.6k ursa mini). For gimbal and glidecam shots I don't always have a 1st ac and wireless follow focus on set, so I'll often end up using the sony for it's 1080p face detect auto-focus (even though I prefer the look of the blackmagic).

Very few people are buying 5dmk iv for video, it's mainly photographers. putting 4k in the 6d will have very little effect on 5d sales as most people buying the 5d are photographers (video people like myself ended up picking up the sony a7sii in the same price range). saying including the same 4k in the 6d as the 5d would cut 2/3 the buyers off the 5d is suggesting that 2/3 the people buying the 5dmk iv are doing so for video, which seems unlikely. however canons cheaper cameras like the 80d have a very large video user base and a 1.6x crop 4k on the 6d mkii could extend that user base.

 

JVC is 2650$ in US and C200 is triple that money, then you have BlackMagic, then A7S, then 6D, then 5D, then an Ursa Mini, then an iPhone I guess.. I can't follow your logic, sorry.

When A7Sii was out for the very first time cost 150% more than the 6Dii, not at the same price bracket at all.

It is not JVC that "lacks auto-focus like the C200", all the cine cameras "lack auto-focus like the C200", except a few Canon C cameras.

I said the "6DmarkII you have described ("1.6x crop with the 24mp sensor, c-log update, Mjpeg 4k"), not the one it really is. Almost certainly, no one would buy a 5D for video anymore, and a lot of photographers were waiting for the 6DmkII to change their good, ol' and trustworthy 6D. I know a lot of pro photographers that will buy 2 6DmkII immediately after release. Maybe 2/3 were an exaggeration (something I never DO!), but 6D is one of the most successful Canon series in recent times.

I do not understand what you want to do, and why, you have plenty of cameras, maybe you should concentrate on keeping a couple. A C200 would be perfect for most things (I can see Ursa going down in sales), 6D is definitely not for you (or me!). I guess we are probably waiting for that new amazing Canon M camera with 4K video, but that is not happening this year, or the next..

 

 

[PeterB]

On 6/27/2017 at 5:07 PM, Kisaha said:

JVC is 2650$ in US and C200 is triple that money, then you have BlackMagic, then A7S, then 6D, then 5D, then an Ursa Mini, then an iPhone I guess.. I can't follow your logic, sorry.

When A7Sii was out for the very first time cost 150% more than the 6Dii, not at the same price bracket at all.

It is not JVC that "lacks auto-focus like the C200", all the cine cameras "lack auto-focus like the C200", except a few Canon C cameras.

I said the "6DmarkII you have described ("1.6x crop with the 24mp sensor, c-log update, Mjpeg 4k"), not the one it really is. Almost certainly, no one would buy a 5D for video anymore, and a lot of photographers were waiting for the 6DmkII to change their good, ol' and trustworthy 6D. I know a lot of pro photographers that will buy 2 6DmkII immediately after release. Maybe 2/3 were an exaggeration (something I never DO!), but 6D is one of the most successful Canon series in recent times.

I do not understand what you want to do, and why, you have plenty of cameras, maybe you should concentrate on keeping a couple. A C200 would be perfect for most things (I can see Ursa going down in sales), 6D is definitely not for you (or me!). I guess we are probably waiting for that new amazing Canon M camera with 4K video, but that is not happening this year, or the next..

 

 

I would like a "affordable" dual pixel af camera (in Australia the c200 is $11,500 and 5dmk iv is $4900). I would honestly be fine with the c100 mkii if it's af point wasn't fixed in the centre. the 80d 1080p is more like moire and alising 720p mush, with no clean hdmi or c-log option. if canon made a mirrorless camera at the $3000 mark that competed with the a7sii I would happily (could be a 12mp 4k 80d shooting 30p mjpeg with c-log and clean hdmi out). maybe canon will update the c100 mkiii to shoot 30p 4k mjpeg for $4000 in 12months. but I'm not getting my hopes up (although by that time I hope to be able to buy a higher end camera anyway. although I keep investing in lighting and lenses. so I'm usually out of cash). My logic is that I like canon cameras, and would love to go back to using them. but I can't afford the c200 and can't justify going back to canons 1080p (if it was atleast sharp like d750 that might be alright. not sure if it offers clean hdmi out).

[Kisaha]

30 minutes ago, PeterB said:

I would like a "affordable" dual pixel af camera (in Australia the c200 is $11,500 and 5dmk iv is $4900). I would honestly be fine with the c100 mkii if it's af point wasn't fixed in the centre. the 80d 1080p is more like moire and alising 720p mush, with no clean hdmi or c-log option. if canon made a mirrorless camera at the $3000 mark that competed with the a7sii I would happily (could be a 12mp 4k 80d shooting 30p mjpeg with c-log and clean hdmi out). maybe canon will update the c100 mkiii to shoot 30p 4k mjpeg for $4000 in 12months. but I'm not getting my hopes up (although by that time I hope to be able to buy a higher end camera anyway. although I keep investing in lighting and lenses. so I'm usually out of cash). My logic is that I like canon cameras, and would love to go back to using them. but I can't afford the c200 and can't justify going back to canons 1080p (if it was atleast sharp like d750 that might be alright. not sure if it offers clean hdmi out).

Those are some of the reasons I am not owning any Canon cameras at the moment, but in work we are using C series cameras all the time, I just can't rationalize the cost for a personal camera, and C100mkII start showing its age.

I was expecting the newer C camera to be the perfect buy for me, but I was expecting a C100mkIII, not a completely new camera, and C200 is more than 10.000euros (do the math with AUS$!) here, than the US price, so it is not going to happen (at least for me).

I am keeping my NX cameras (color can be quite similar to Canon with a few tweaks), and I will probably invest on a JVC LS300 this September (we already have one), if nothing new comes in the territory of 6000euros (I repeat, euro pricing is completely different than US pricing, in most products), and probably wait to see if there is going to be a price drop (or stabilize on a more logical price) on C200, or a new C100 - but that is going to happen deep 2018 I guess, and I am already waiting for a year or so!

 

[tugela]

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 8:40 PM, PeterB said:

You don't patch in 4k if the hardware isn't capable. but I suspect it will be using much the same (or updated) internals as the 5d. chances are the 6d mkii is more than capable of 4k but canon will choose to limit it software wise (and not for the first time). I currently own the a7sii and blackmagic pocket camera (I've been aware of the jvc 300 for some time, it still lacks auto-focus like the c200. I would sooner buy a secondhand 4.6k ursa mini). For gimbal and glidecam shots I don't always have a 1st ac and wireless follow focus on set, so I'll often end up using the sony for it's 1080p face detect auto-focus (even though I prefer the look of the blackmagic).

Very few people are buying 5dmk iv for video, it's mainly photographers. putting 4k in the 6d will have very little effect on 5d sales as most people buying the 5d are photographers (video people like myself ended up picking up the sony a7sii in the same price range). saying including the same 4k in the 6d as the 5d would cut 2/3 the buyers off the 5d is suggesting that 2/3 the people buying the 5dmk iv are doing so for video, which seems unlikely. however canons cheaper cameras like the 80d have a very large video user base and a 1.6x crop 4k on the 6d mkii could extend that user base.

 

No, it will be using SD slots apparently, and those won't be able to handle the bandwidth required for the software implementation used in the 5D4. The 6D2 will apparently use the digic 7 processor, which should have a 4K encoder on board, but without a fan to cool it it would get too hot. So no 4K hardware encoding either.

There is no 4K in the 6D2 because the hardware in the camera can't cope with the demands necessary to implement it.

[Michal Gajdoš]

On 6/25/2017 at 2:31 PM, Trek of Joy said:

Analogies like this make no sense. Gopro essentially makes one thing. Kodak essentially made two - film and cheap cameras. Competition and market shifts killed both.

Canon's other divisions generate more revenue than cameras, even if they lose market share (which hasn't happened, Sony's gains are replacing the other's losses) they still have other divisions that continue to be revenue drivers. As much as people keep wanting to call Canon the next Kodak, its simply not true. SMH.

just because you think it is not so, it doesn't mean it isn't, no matter how hard you want it too. As i said million times before, LOOK AT THE CURRENT GENERATIONS, they are all used to instant reaction, they know how their photo will look like, hell they even get animations over their faces. Now go and tell them that this camera from canon (with OVF, no real DoF view, no real WB, NOTHING) is great and you will like it. They laugh at you. I am telling you from a perspective of a guy who himself didn't want any DSLR (not only because i have to think twice before i write  the acronym : "digital single lens... blahbalh) but because it's atrocity, a thing of the past, a more difficult way to get the picture, and i am 1992, now imagine kids from 2010 (yo go grab that OVF, awesome camera)... dude, this is not about Canon or Nikon, whole photography is in jeopardy. its sad people don't realize this, but ask yourself how many of your friends (outside of photo video business are taking photos with system cameras ? )

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Michal Gajdoš said:

just because you think it is not so, it doesn't mean it isn't, no matter how hard you want it too. As i said million times before, LOOK AT THE CURRENT GENERATIONS, they are all used to instant reaction, they know how their photo will look like, hell they even get animations over their faces. Now go and tell them that this camera from canon (with OVF, no real DoF view, no real WB, NOTHING) is great and you will like it. They laugh at you. I am telling you from a perspective of a guy who himself didn't want any DSLR (not only because i have to think twice before i write  the acronym : "digital single lens... blahbalh) but because it's atrocity, a thing of the past, a more difficult way to get the picture, and i am 1992, now imagine kids from 2010 (yo go grab that OVF, awesome camera)... dude, this is not about Canon or Nikon, whole photography is in jeopardy. its sad people don't realize this, but ask yourself how many of your friends (outside of photo video business are taking photos with system cameras ? )

The problem with this argument is that it comes from a child's perspective. 20 years ago me and my friends didn't buy real cameras either, we bought disposables. Children never buy high ticket items and manufacturers don't cater to them for that reason. In 10 to 20 years when they stop going to the bars and start having children and hobbies, then they buy cameras.

Sure the low end consumer camera market will never be what it once was but it hasn't been that for years and most of the companies have already adjusted for it. 

I'm sure I sound like a dinosaur but don't underestimate the amount of money a middle class man will spend on a hobby as they grow and accustomed to adulthood. 

[Trek of Joy]

2 hours ago, Michal Gajdoš said:

just because you think it is not so, it doesn't mean it isn't, no matter how hard you want it too. As i said million times before, LOOK AT THE CURRENT GENERATIONS, they are all used to instant reaction, they know how their photo will look like, hell they even get animations over their faces. Now go and tell them that this camera from canon (with OVF, no real DoF view, no real WB, NOTHING) is great and you will like it. They laugh at you. I am telling you from a perspective of a guy who himself didn't want any DSLR (not only because i have to think twice before i write  the acronym : "digital single lens... blahbalh) but because it's atrocity, a thing of the past, a more difficult way to get the picture, and i am 1992, now imagine kids from 2010 (yo go grab that OVF, awesome camera)... dude, this is not about Canon or Nikon, whole photography is in jeopardy. its sad people don't realize this, but ask yourself how many of your friends (outside of photo video business are taking photos with system cameras ? )

Read the financial reports and go back and read Kodak's SEC filings when they were still a profitable company, they tell you more than your incorrect anecdotal experiences. Canon's imaging bottom line is getting whacked by a shrinking market and the cratering of compacts - this is a fact that Canon even states in its financials. But Canon's business model isn't like Kodak's - which was essentially film, printers and goofy store kiosk's to try and get people to print digital images, Kodak doubled down on film and lost. Canon is diverse - its cameras, lenses, printers, copiers, high end medical instruments, broadcast cameras, sensors for security cameras and so on. If you'd bother to read their reports, imaging is a smaller division than office and business systems and medical is growing. So your Kodak analogy absolutely makes no sense because even if Canon never sold another camera it wouldn't be bankrupt. Kodak didn't have other highly profitable divisions and when film went bye-bye, so did Kodak.

Please educate yourself before telling me what's correct, what my friends and your friends are or are not doing with a camera is irrelevant to Canon's financials. Calling Canon the next Kodak is just being willfully ignorant of the facts.

Cheers

[UncleBobsPhotography]

It seems to me that the way the 6DM2 has been crippled hardware wise compared to the 5DM4 is mainly the SD card write speed. With DPAF, touch screen, a new sensor and processor the 6DM2 has most of the hardware necessary to make a great video camera. I am pretty sure magic lantern would be able to do amazing things with it if they had the access, but my suspicious is that the limited bandwidth will be the real bottle neck to make sure it can never be a real threat to their more expensive lineups.

[Trek of Joy]

9 hours ago, Michal Gajdoš said:

Jesus you are a butthurt pityful guy. I couldn't care less about the Canon's fax and printing and medical and cocaine and oil industry. I am educated in business amd economics enough to make an assumptiom for myself. Calling me to educate myself is just being willfully ignorant of the facts, to use your words precise. Your analogy, that even if canon didn't sell a single camer they would still be fine, is perfectly in line with the Kodak analogy. They still exist, lately released even a smartphone :). I pity you if you have time to read financial statements of canon, just ro prove someone is wrong, because you can't let go of the idea that i might be actually right and you wrong. Oh and no need to insult people and then write cheers at the end. Actually you know what, "cheers my ass mofo"

Ad hominem attacks say it all about you.

And you continue to use Kodak and be willfully ignorant of facts - Canon isn't bankrupt, they're flush with cash and they don't rely on cameras to survive - that's a key difference. The collapse of film and the lack of diversification beyond that is what drove Kodak to bankruptcy. I really can't say any more because you can't seem to understand that. If you actually knew economics you would be able to read their SEC filings, try a 10k report and get the facts instead of anecdotal "my friends" stuff - something no economist would ever use in an argument. Milton Friedman is rolling in his grave right now. Everyone calling the lack of 4k in their DSLR's and mirrorless cameras leading to the collapse of Canon is again being ignorant of factual information. This drum has been beating for years, here and other places - especially when the GH4 was released and then again with the A7rII - yet they're not losing any market share. Everyone below them are just eating each others lunch.

I'm well aware Kodak still exists, and it has actually come out of the ashes to post a small profit recently. Kudos to them for starting to turn things around. most of their revenue is on the industrial side, they don't actually make the phone either, its just their name and design. They have thousands of imaging patents, time to put them to work.

But with the attacks I'm ignoring you.

Cheers

[Mattias Burling]

9 hours ago, Michal Gajdoš said:

Had a look at gopro and decided to continue with their strategy ?

Looked at Gopro and saw them going into the toilet. Therefore continuing with the strategy thats made them stay profitable while Panasony are in the reds.

[Trek of Joy]

On 6/27/2017 at 0:27 AM, Andrew Reid said:

Toshiba had a very profitable nuclear business.

And now, that has sunk the entire company and they are selling off their arms and legs.

Canon are conservative and sensible, but things can and do go wrong with big companies no matter how profitable they are.

Don't take profit alone as a sign of a healthy business.

VW were profitable... And in the background, floating the regulations.

VW posted a $5.4 billion profit last year. And they're still sitting on something like $30 billion in cash, even after buying my Golf TDi back. VW is a very healthy company and showing growth in key markets like China. Profit isn't the only indicator, its just part of the overall financial picture - cash reserves, debt, earnings, return on equity and so on are better indicators. That's why I keep saying read the 10k's and 10q's, because you get the complete picture from an accountant and a balance sheet - not a press release or some Cnet article that's essentially a repost of a press release and a report pulled off the AP Wire. But that also requires an understanding of accounting and how to read a balance sheet, which judging by the comments by others attacking me for simply stating facts, doesn't seem to be the case.

You can cherry pick companies that have failed or sold off divisions, but most aren't direct parallels because of the various factors that contribute to an individual industry. The Fukushima disaster and a busted development in Georgia has slowed Toshiba's nuke program. I'm an active investor with an economics background before getting a journalism degree. I read financials all the time for investment purposes.

The continued "my friends/generation" stuff is also nothing more than anecdotal - and that's my other point. Its simply not based on actual facts.

Cheers.

[Andrew Reid]

3 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Looked at Gopro and saw them going into the toilet. Therefore continuing with the strategy thats made them stay profitable while Panasony are in the reds.

Panasonic and Sony are not in the red with their camera businesses!

[Mattias Burling]

16 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Panasonic and Sony are not in the red with their camera businesses!

Any links?

I can only find stuff like this.

http://www.thephoblographer.com/2017/03/27/panasonics-digital-camera-business-named-dwindling-profit-report/

"When you look at CIPA stats though things don’t look all incredibly too bad for the industry. But Panasonic isn’t the only one hurting right now. Nikon is doing amassive restructuring to really focus on their higher end cameras."

[Andrew Reid]

That quotes the Nikkei article that Panasonic ended up having to disprove in public because of how badly worded it was "dismantling camera division" when it was actually just a normal restructuring of the pro and consumer departments for marketing reasons.

Also ThePhobloggrapher article seems to be written by a child.

[jonpais]

I've got no idea how even shooters with no interest whatsoever in 4K can defend Canon in this instance. Not only the lack of 4K, but only a few focus points clustered in the center of the frame (the 80D has got more points stretching out closer to the edges of the frame), no IBIS, no joystick, no headphone jack, and only one SD card slot when many less expensive cameras have two. Among the alternatives, Tony Northrup recommends getting the 80D (for half the price) and getting a couple of fast Sigmas rather than purchasing the 6D Mk II with one of the slow f/4 kit lenses and the images will turn out better (pretty much what I've been recommending all along when it comes to Panasonic cameras); a used Sony A7R II for $2,200 (EVF, 42 MP stabilized sensor); or even the X-T2 for $1,600. 

[Mattias Burling]

5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

That quotes the Nikkei article that Panasonic ended up having to disprove in public because of how badly worded it was "dismantling camera division" when it was actually just a normal restructuring of the pro and consumer departments for marketing reasons.

Also ThePhobloggrapher article seems to be written by a child.

So no links then?