Audio Guys - could you give me some advice?

[Oliver Daniel]

When you shoot a lot of music video stuff, or hire a sound guy for the commercial stuff, audio gets naturally shifted to the side. 

Now, I need audio without having a sound guy - but in a very specific way. 

I'm going to be releasing a weekly web series about exactly what me and my team are doing on a project from start to end. It will be informal, fun, fly on the wall and pretty zippy. 

There are two types of scenario: 

 

Scenario 1

There will be moments where we as individuals we need to discreetly record decent audio of what we're blabbering on about, while being followed by a camera or recording ourselves - this could be anywhere. In the car, whilst buying a coffee, climbing up some ladders, in a cave, wherever and whenever.

Recordings will be done on Sony Alpha and RX cameras. 

My understanding is that a lavalier would be most suitable, but I'm not sure which setup, looking at Sennheiser, Saramonic, RODE etc? 

 

Scenario 2

There will be kind of news TV style, talk to people with a radio mic on hand kinda thing. So we'll ask the client, or any other contributor on the shoot, ask them some questions for an informative reply. So we're going for a radio mic vibe with our company logo attached onto it. Needs to be wireless. 

 

Anybody who knows better than me, like @IronFilm, what would be a nice, cost effective package to cover this strategy? 

Thank you  

[BTM_Pix]

For scenario 1, I've mentioned the Roland Binaural system in another thread and it might be worth looking at for this.

I think it might be a good fit for what you're trying to do in terms of fly on the wall as many people are using it and similar for environmental based recording like soundscapes inside a cafe etc. 

In this respect it might just suit the vibe that you're after where you might not want particularly focused sound.

Its a try before you buy product though to make sure it suits. As Roland are more music focused, you might have to go to a music shop to try them. Dawsons in town or PMT on Regent Rd should be able to help.

Thread here 

For your other scenario, I have the Saramonic dual channel system with one lav pack and one plug on xlr transmitter so its got a lot flexibility and you can run both simultaneously.

An alternative to the radio system if you don't mind post sync is the Tascam DR10x which is a recorder in the same form factor as a plug on XLR transmitter.

Can be a lot less hassle depending on where you're working and is also a much cheaper alternative too at about £140.

They do a lav version of it as well which is also pretty clever.

http://tascam.com/product/dr-10x/

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Anybody who knows better than me, like @IronFilm, what would be a nice, cost effective package to cover this strategy? 

 

Ohhhh.... I got tagged! :-) But it is nearly 6am on a Saturday... I've been drinking all night, I'll  reply properly when I next log in! :-)  As I might be kinda every so slightly in trouble with the GF due to the girls I brought home...

6 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

For your other scenario, I have the Saramonic dual channel system with one lav pack and one plug on xlr transmitter so its got a lot flexibility and you can run both simultaneously.

 

I used to be such a big fan of Saramonic  for its utterly crazy insanely good value for money!

But then I had my Saramonic  fail on me.... so I dunno. 
 
Sony UWP-D11 secondhand on eBay are so utterly dirt cheap, why settle for anything less??

6 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

An alternative to the radio system if you don't mind post sync is the Tascam DR10x which is a recorder in the same form factor as a plug on XLR transmitter.

 

Plus the DR10L is a pretty damn sweet kit if you're going to use lavs but won't bother to monitor those either..... :-/

[BTM_Pix]

13 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

 

Plus the DR10L is a pretty damn sweet kit if you're going to use lavs but won't bother to monitor those either..... :-/

It has a headphone output on it for monitoring or am I missing the point?

Anyway, who cares, tell us more about your unauthorised visitors !

[Jonesy Jones]

2 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Anyway, who cares, tell us more about your unauthorised visitors !

They enjoy a good beard apparently.

[Dan Wake]

clothes + lavalier may introduce noise if they move, so if they move a lot during speaking hire a sound guy with a boompole (I see no alternative). use lavalier as backup maybe, or for long shots, or where room have too much reverb (rare).

If the sound of the lavaliers is dirty because of the clothes is the end. or if it lost the signal for some reasons, there must be always a sound guy who monitor it. it's a huge mistake to do it without someone who can listen and monitor it (ultra huge).

[scotchtape]

Why not the Sennheiser AVX or G3... the set with lav and plug on transmitter...

[Dan Wake]

if you really can't hire someone try to use a shoulder rig with a camera plus a good microphone. use wide lens so you can be very (always) very very close to the ones who are speaking. be sure the mic is not placed too close to the camera because otherwise it will pickup the noise of the IS system of the lens, or the noise of the aperture ring, the noise of the handling. find a good rig that gives you space to place a mic in a safe zone.

[Kisaha]

@Dan Wake is right in both his posts.

AVX is an excellent system for such scenarios (its "auto gain" system is excellent) but I would never trust a lavalier microphone that way (or, in anyway), especially with people doing whatever. The aforementioned Tascam is great too (and cheaper), but again, I wouldn't bet even 1.6$ for adequate sound, you just can't be sure.

Maybe the simpler solution is the Sennheiser MKE-440, directional, but with a wider range (sort of a wide lens), with a couple of those you can have most things.

In projects like these, the quality of sound (or even image) is not that important, and you can't control the uncontrollable, and sound is everything about control.

[IronFilm]

On 6/23/2017 at 10:28 PM, Oliver Daniel said:

My understanding is that a lavalier would be most suitable, but I'm not sure which setup, looking at Sennheiser, Saramonic, RODE etc? 

 

If you can't monitor the audio, and have someone dedicated to that, then I recommend you keep the lavieres visible and on the outside.  Will make the risk of clothing noise (as there is quite a fine art to the placement of hidden microphones) much much lower. 

 

Rode:
My first ever wireless was a RodeLink, as it had just came out, and was by far the cheapest option on the market (which would give you acceptable results).
Which I really regret....  as the TX packs are hell bulky! RodeLinks are still a solid buy if you're shooting in a niche which doesn't care about hiding the TX away from the camera. 

Saramonic:
I used to be quite keen on these.... as it got a few good reviews, and is EXTREMELY cheap. However my own personal experience with it has been disappointing, as it broke quickly. 

Sennheiser:
G3 is the default answer to the question of "what no/low budget wireless should I get?"
I feel however this a flawed answer, which only gets repeated over and over, because it has been repeated over and over before in the past.....  and so the cycle continues!!

Sony:
The Sony UWP-D11 is the best very low priced option you can buy brand new.  It is almost identically priced to the Sennheiser G3, but in basically every way it is a little better and more refined. Although in the end, the performance gap between the G3 and UWP-D11 isn't that great, and they're both broadly speaking in the same category. (to step out of that group you'd need to leap up to spending on Lectrosonics/Zaxcom/etc). 

 

 

On 6/23/2017 at 10:28 PM, Oliver Daniel said:

Recordings will be done on Sony Alpha and RX cameras. 

 

A bonus feature of using a Sony UWP-D11 is you can use it with a multi shoe interface adapter to have it feed into the camera directly without cables with some Sony cameras.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1079814-REG/sony_smad_p3_multi_interface_shoe_adapter.html

[IronFilm]

On 6/24/2017 at 5:45 AM, BTM_Pix said:

It has a headphone output on it for monitoring or am I missing the point?

The Tascam DR10C series is only sold in some markets (such as the UK) with the headphone output option, as Zaxcom and their army of lawyers stopped Tascam from selling it in the USA. 

Thus Tascam had to go back to the drawing board and release a newly designed product: the Tascam DR10L! (basically the same thing, but without a headphone output. Maybe the "L" stands for "Less"? ha!)

However...  this feature missing is not such a big deal as you might think, as very obviously you can't monitor the audio via that headphone jack while the talent is wearing it!! ha

***EXCEPT***..... if you're passing it through to a TX so then you can monitor it wireless, on your recorder.  Thus the Tascam DR10C is acting as a back up recording (which is what Zaxcom hated, and they claim to have a patent on), in case of wireless interference. 

 

On 6/24/2017 at 5:45 AM, BTM_Pix said:

Anyway, who cares, tell us more about your unauthorised visitors !

Errr.... I don't even remember making my first post in this thread!! :-o whoops

But nah, everything was all good the morning after. 

[BTM_Pix]

17 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

The Tascam DR10C series is only sold in some markets (such as the UK) with the headphone output option, as Zaxcom and their army of lawyers stopped Tascam from selling it in the USA. 

Thus Tascam had to go back to the drawing board and release a newly designed product: the Tascam DR10L! (basically the same thing, but without a headphone output. Maybe the "L" stands for "Less"? ha!)

However...  this feature missing is not such a big deal as you might think, as very obviously you can't monitor the audio via that headphone jack while the talent is wearing it!! ha

***EXCEPT***..... if you're passing it through to a TX so then you can monitor it wireless, on your recorder.  Thus the Tascam DR10C is acting as a back up recording (which is what Zaxcom hated, and they claim to have a patent on), in case of wireless interference. 

Ahhh

Blimey, must be one of the few times we get more on a product here! 

 

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Blimey, must be one of the few times we get more on a product here! 

 

You can thank having slightly less screwed up IP laws than the USA!

[Oliver Daniel]

@IronFilm and co, I lost this thread...

Thank you for the information. 

I was actually looking at some Saramonic stuff but will do more research if you say you had a bad experience. Might be a one-off or actually a thing. 

I can trust Sony though with the Sony UWP-D11.

Need a good wireless radio mic though for on-the-spot interviewing. 

[IronFilm]

You can pick up a secondhand UWP-D11 so cheap, I don't even see the point in saving money by buying a Saramonic UWMic9

[Kisaha]

I will vote Sony's as well. They are my go to wireless for a few years now.

Rodelink are exceptional for half the price (or less) than any other low cost wireless system (I am not counting the very small brands), for most people are just perfect.

The G3s are old news now. Can't seem to compete with hybrid or full digital systems. 

AVX is a great idea, as they seem to operate on their own specific wireless range, but the price, and the extra battery costs (their batteries are unique for this device) make them a very expensive semi-pro suggestion. It is the smallest low cost system though, good for lonely camera operators.

I am trying to figure out if it is appropriate to me to invest 6 times the Sony money for a Lectrosonics set (and Sound Devices), or to invest on a complete Zaxcom recorder/in- build wireless set offering back up recording on the transmitter and NeverClip features. This is this years dilemma!

[maxotics]

From left field, you might get a Sony FDR X3000 and Rhode VideoMicro because the X3000 ActionCam has a MIC-IN.  Its internal mic is pretty good too.  The image stabilization is amazing.  If anything, the camera is too small--I often don't pay attention and get crooked footage.   You could look at it as a small audio recorder with 4K, or time-laps, or slow mo.  You can put 10 of those in your pocket and still forget you have them   

Here's a video with and without the Rhode VideoMicro.  As you can hear, it does very well and picking up sound in front of it, even with a lot of background noise.

The camera has a tripod mount on the bottom, so I just attach the mic with a double male 1/4 inch screw.

BTW, I just happened to start working on the lens attachment for close-up filming so if you get one let me know and I'll send you a prototype.

 

[IronFilm]

On 8/28/2017 at 5:18 AM, Kisaha said:

Rodelink are exceptional for half the price (or less) than any other low cost wireless system (I am not counting the very small brands), for most people are just perfect.

Perfect?? Only if you don't need to hide the transmitter frequently! Then RodeLinks are useless. 

So it might be ok for some sorts of documentaries, or for ultra low budget corporate shoots, but for everything else you are wasting your money buying RodeLinks. 

Especially as a secondhand Sony UWP-D11 / Sennheiser G3 is similar (or less!) money than a new RodeLink.

On 8/28/2017 at 5:18 AM, Kisaha said:

I am trying to figure out if it is appropriate to me to invest 6 times the Sony money for a Lectrosonics set (and Sound Devices), or to invest on a complete Zaxcom recorder/in- build wireless set offering back up recording on the transmitter and NeverClip features. This is this years dilemma!

Zaxcom or the latest Lectrosonics is waaay too expensive for me :-(

But 200 series Lectrosonics is very affordable! I am building up four pairs of Lectrosonics 200 series wireless at the moment. (plus have a 5th Lectrosonics TX/RX pair, which is fixed frequency)

And for the rest of my wireless, for the curious, I have:
2x RodeLink + 5x Sony UWP-D11 + 3x Samson Micro + 1x Saramonic UwMic9

[Trek of Joy]

I've been using the G3 for years, its a well proven system and you can find deals on ebay. I have the handheld cardioid and the lav. I had the plug in transmitter as well, but I rarely used it so I swapped it for the all-in-one mic. If I were shooting Sony, I'd seriously consider the MIS capable stuff to get a good feed right into the camera, for me that makes editing easier. 

[Drew Allegre]

On 8/29/2017 at 5:17 AM, IronFilm said:

And for the rest of my wireless, for the curious, I have:
2x RodeLink + 5x Sony UWP-D11 + 3x Samson Micro + 1x Saramonic UwMic9

What kind of working range do you typically get with the UWP-D11?  Would it be usable at the back of a church (for wedding work) for instance?  I've seen some people say 50-75 feet, which would be kind of limiting.