Magic Lantern Raw Video

[mercer]

11 minutes ago, The ghost of squig said:

It's all about having the right tool for the job and efficiencies. On a 30 day Alexa shoot, a 1st AC would add $8000 to my budget, including food, accommodation, travel, etc.A gaffer, that's another $8000. Steadicam operator for that Alexa? There goes another $10,000. All fine when you have a 500k budget, not so much with an 80k budget. Tech like DPAF, dual ISO, and Braw makes lower budget projects with high production values more viable.

I think we’re playing in different sandboxes. Ha. I’m playing with a 4 digit budget... but trust me, I understand your points and needs... I waste a lot of time and takes tracking the talent manually only to be off at critical points. Luckily, I shoot a lot of coverage, so I can always cut to a different angle when necessary. 

To me, it sounds like you’re describing a C200. I know, @HockeyFan12 has a C200 and experience working on real sets, with Alexa’s and Reds, so maybe he can chime in here.

[Mattias Burling]

8 hours ago, mercer said:

.No, I don’t know of any but I am heading out this weekend to “officially” test it for my film, so I can probably put something together for you next week, if that helps? Just let me know what type of footage you’d like to see.

It's just to test the workflow so anything really. High DR is always useful and cats are cool

[HockeyFan12]

13 hours ago, mercer said:

I think we’re playing in different sandboxes. Ha. I’m playing with a 4 digit budget... but trust me, I understand your points and needs... I waste a lot of time and takes tracking the talent manually only to be off at critical points. Luckily, I shoot a lot of coverage, so I can always cut to a different angle when necessary. 

To me, it sounds like you’re describing a C200. I know, @HockeyFan12 has a C200 and experience working on real sets, with Alexa’s and Reds, so maybe he can chime in here.

That is what the C200 is good at imo, providing a good image without much of a crew. On the other hand, it lacks input/output/monitoring options, codecs, ergonomic designs, etc. that become more important and more desirable with a larger crew and on a larger production. 

I'm a little underwhelmed by DPAF, it's just hit or miss. It could work very well for simple steadicam moves and handheld follows and on tricky long lens shots and complement pulling focus manually on simpler shots imo. Definitely very useful in certain contexts and pretty natural and a great option to have, but it's still a poor replacement for an AC.

I suspect most pro owner/ops would be better served with an FS7. Ergonomics and codec options and monitoring options are more in line with industry standards. And I prefer the "look" of the EVA1 out of camera, but the canon raw image is so flexible in post that it's not a big deal if it looks flatter/duller imo. It also looks closer to an Alexa, which is nice for B roll or shooting plates. (And it responds better to S curves and an Arri LUT than to Canon's sort of ugly wide DR LUT.) But for your needs the C200 might be a lot better than an FS7. The image continues to impress me a lot, it's in the same class as much more expensive cinema cameras, I think, though it's subjective. From what I heard from Canon, it's the same sensor as the C700, just without the look around room, and I have every reason to believe it.

Don't bother with the B model though imo, the EVF is too useful.

[mercer]

16 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

It's just to test the workflow so anything really. High DR is always useful and cats are cool

You’re in luck... I have cats that sit by the window.

9 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I'm a little underwhelmed by DPAF, it's just hit or miss. It could work very well for simple steadicam moves and handheld follows and on tricky long lens shots and complement pulling focus manually on simpler shots imo. Definitely very useful in certain contexts and pretty natural and a great option to have, but it's still a poor replacement for an AC.

I wish I was in the market for one because you just described every scenario that it would be a blessing for me.

[zerocool22]

On 6/4/2019 at 4:35 PM, mercer said:

 

1080p is still more than enough for me. Even at a little less than 12 stops, the 5D3 still blows me away.

 

Yeah DR is my main concern with shooting with the 5d iii. When DR is low it is amazing. But I shot a wedding at high noon outdoors and DR was a serious problem, where the A7S II held up pretty good. So I am endlessly waiting on the 5D IV ML, but im about to give up. 

[mercer]

2 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Yeah DR is my main concern with shooting with the 5d iii. When DR is low it is amazing. But I shot a wedding at high noon outdoors and DR was a serious problem, where the A7S II held up pretty good. So I am endlessly waiting on the 5D IV ML, but im about to give up. 

I get that, who wouldn’t want more DR? I’ve just found, in most instances, 12 is enough for me. If I’m being honest with myself, which I try to, any limitation I currently have, has more to do with my own skills than the 5D3. Obviously, DPAF would make my life easier and smaller file sizes, but ML solved that with 14 bit Lossless and I’m getting double the storage now.

I’m also slowly building a small, BMMCC rig for certain projects where ProRes LT or 422, to SD cards, is more than enough... plus I get to dust off my small collection of c-mount lenses.

I hear you about the 5D4, I’ve been hoping for a breakthrough, but I don’t know if the interest is there. Everybody at ML seems more intrigued with the smaller cameras. I think I read that one of the guys has stopped working on the 5D3 to concentrate on the M50.

To add about DR on the 5D3, I think the 14bit color offers a little more texture which gives the perception of more DR. 

For instance, in this frame, the texture of my actor’s skin would be way smoother with a compressed codec that had more DR than the 5D3 so, with my limited tech knowledge, I can only attribute it to the extra color tonality of 14 bit...

 

[HockeyFan12]

On 6/5/2019 at 9:59 AM, mercer said:

You’re in luck... I have cats that sit by the window.

I wish I was in the market for one because you just described every scenario that it would be a blessing for me.

It's not that consistent, though. You can't always rely on it, which is frustrating. For some shots DPAF is great but it's not an AC. 

Just rent one for the right project imo–I think it will scratch the itch. The more I play around with C200 raw footage, the "thinner" I'm realizing it is, despite the great dynamic range. I'm surprised how much abuse C100 Ninja footage can take and how little the C200 can take. The log profiles are just so flat.

The more I think about it the more I'm just like-I should just use either a dSLR/mirrorless if I'm focused on story or rent an Alexa if I have the resources. Alexa footage, even transcoded to 8 bit, can stand virtually any amount of abuse in post. My t2i had the best skin tones and best neutralizing of fluorescent lights. (Film is worst at that imo.) No other camera I've worked with behaves like the Alexa, possibly film scans do.... or the F35 maybe? It's something about the noise structure. Yea so I like the Alexa because it's noisy and soft lol...

The C200 is also a lot heavier than a C100, let alone the 5D3. And it's not truly weather-sealed, though I have had great luck with durability from Canon in general. And Canon Log 2 sucks for grading. It's harder to find a fast wide lens than with the 5D3. I'd stick with the 5D3 if it's working for you. But yeah having your camera moves limited by not having an AC is frustrating and DPAF helps there. I do the most rudimentary blocking so everyone is standing in one place. Not good, but on the other hand whatever. But I enjoy the tech stuff and flexibility the camera provides, I'm happy with it. I mean I don't like the F55 raw either and was underwhelmed by the Red, I must be an Alexa fanboy. But I recommend renting one still, it's a pretty cool camera.

[mercer]

22 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

It's not that consistent, though. You can't always rely on it, which is frustrating. For some shots DPAF is great but it's not an AC. 

 

I rely too much on shallow DOF anyway. After watching Jaws, yet again, I really enjoyed Spielberg’s use of deep focus mixed with camera movement and blocking...  so I may start exploring a slightly different style that doesn’t require AS MUCH shallow depth... so DPAF may not be as necessary. 

Since I am a one man band operator, I may look into a GlideCam or gimbal to get a little more dynamic, kinetic energy into my filmmaking. 

I’ll eventually rent a C200 but I don’t really have a need to right now but perhaps next summer after I’ve wrapped up these projects I’m working on.

[hmcindie]

A couple of little ML RAW action scenes done as practice runs:

 

 

[Geoff_L]

I do not know if it has already been posted (sorry if that is the case) :

I may be able to buy a camera during the next months, after I let my z6 go (financial reasons, not the camera...). As I won't be able to spend a lot of money, I started to watch a lot of videos from moderate budget cameras and... no matter what I watch, I always come back to the 5D iii...
From all the cameras I am thinking about, I really like the image from the og bmpcc, I like the new bmpcc4 too (a little less though), but I am really love the 5D one ; wow, what a mojo ! The best thing to happen would be a final release for the 5D IV !

[webrunner5]

Yeah but without ML they are not so hot on the video side. Photos are nice though. They are a big hunk of a camera though when you get used to Mirrorless cameras.

[Geoff_L]

2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but without ML they are not so hot on the video side. Photos are nice though. They are a big hunk of a camera though when you get used to Mirrorless cameras.

Yes, exactly ! Evf, form factor, all the small "gadgets" that make your life easier... would be hard to be back to the big tanks ?  Some guys on the magic lantern forum seem to progress with the EOS R. Would be great, but also could take years to come (if it ever comes !)...
 

[webrunner5]

I think I would like to try a Canon M50 with a Speedbooster on it down the road.

[Geoff_L]

1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

I think I would like to try a Canon M50 with a Speedbooster on it down the road.

Oh yeah, after browsing the eos M post, I checked the prices and it was quite tempting ! I'm gonna read about the m50 ; I forgot it since Andrew's article on the first of april !

[webrunner5]

 

 

[Geoff_L]

OK... now I am interested ! There is special sales for the M50 right now : 400€ body only ! 150€ off, which pay the viltrox speedbooster... And MPB.com has a eos M for 110€ ahah. Might be good, to try experimenting with Ml.

Ah, and they got 5d's iii in good conditions for around 1050€

Hm... I should not had read this sub forum ?

[mercer]

5 hours ago, Geoff_L said:

do not know if it has already been posted (sorry if that is the case) :



 

This is a great example of the beauty of ML Raw on the 5D3... coincidently this is @zerocool22 ‘s video so he could have some insight into his process.

I love my 5D3 and ML Raw and have yet to find a camera I would choose over it. The OG Pocket and Micro are also great choices and the P4K looks to be a pretty great camera as well. But for me, there is just something about that FF Raw image that is undeniable.

With that being said, it’s not for everybody.

 

[Geoff_L]

4 minutes ago, mercer said:

This is a great example of the beauty of ML Raw on the 5D3... coincidently this is @zerocool22 ‘s video so he could have some insight into his process.

I love my 5D3 and ML Raw and have yet to find a camera I would choose over it. The OG Pocket and Micro are also great choices and the P4K looks to be a pretty great camera as well. But for me, there is just something about that FF Raw image that is undeniable.

With that being said, it’s not for everybody.

 

Oh, I did not know that was his video, great ! He seems to be interested in the future z6 raw capabilities  ; I guess when you taste raw video it is hard to move away from it.
Yes I can understand why it not for everybody ; I use my camera mainly during outdoor activities, especially multi days/weeks hiking trip, and battery charging + memory space is always the big downside.
So, while I am in love with the 5D iii ML image, I guess I would have problems to deal with the massive files while out in the middle of nowhere ?  (I checked for a on location back-up solution for CFcard, but it seems to be quite a pain).
With that being said, the M50 is really tempting. Mercer, I thing I read you are closely keeping on eye on cameras like the Fuji XT3, to complement your 5D. Do you consider the M50, especially with the Speedbooster ?

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Geoff_L said:

Oh, I did not know that was his video, great ! He seems to be interested in the future z6 raw capabilities  ; I guess when you taste raw video it is hard to move away from it.
Yes I can understand why it not for everybody ; I use my camera mainly during outdoor activities, especially multi days/weeks hiking trip, and battery charging + memory space is always the big downside.
So, while I am in love with the 5D iii ML image, I guess I would have problems to deal with the massive files while out in the middle of nowhere ?  (I checked for a on location back-up solution for CFcard, but it seems to be quite a pain).
With that being said, the M50 is really tempting. Mercer, I thing I read you are closely keeping on eye on cameras like the Fuji XT3, to complement your 5D. Do you consider the M50, especially with the Speedbooster ?

Yeah, honestly, I don’t think ML Raw would be a great choice for your needs. 14bit Lossless has doubled my storage requirements and has helped tremendously but it’s still storage hungry. For instance, I get about 25-30 minutes of footage on a 64GB card with 14bit Lossless whereas I used to get 12 minutes. A 64GB card costs about $50-$60. With MLVFS, post processing is actually pretty fast now. So I guess, you could make it work depending on how judicious a shooter you are.

Yes, I briefly was interested in the X-T3 and the P4K and the GH5... I like cameras and sometimes it’s strange only having one camera at my disposal but every time I come back from a shooting day and get those files into my computer, I quickly forget about other cameras.

With that being said, I will most likely buy another Micro camera this summer. I really liked it when I had it the first time and being an FCPX user, shooting native ProRes will be a great alternative to ML Raw for some upcoming projects.

As far as the M50, I liked the footage I’ve seen from it. I like how you can use c-mounts for a pseudo 16mm look when shooting 4K, or if 1080p is good enough, you get a S35 image with DPAF.

You have a Z6, now? Why do you want to move to a different camera? With the ProRes Raw update coming shortly, I’d be pretty tempted to hold onto it and see how it pans out. Of course, I don’t know how long it will be before it’s available?

[Geoff_L]

11 hours ago, mercer said:

Yeah, honestly, I don’t think ML Raw would be a great choice for your needs. 14bit Lossless has doubled my storage requirements and has helped tremendously but it’s still storage hungry. For instance, I get about 25-30 minutes of footage on a 64GB card with 14bit Lossless whereas I used to get 12 minutes. A 64GB card costs about $50-$60. With MLVFS, post processing is actually pretty fast now. So I guess, you could make it work depending on how judicious a shooter you are.

Yes, I briefly was interested in the X-T3 and the P4K and the GH5... I like cameras and sometimes it’s strange only having one camera at my disposal but every time I come back from a shooting day and get those files into my computer, I quickly forget about other cameras.

With that being said, I will most likely buy another Micro camera this summer. I really liked it when I had it the first time and being an FCPX user, shooting native ProRes will be a great alternative to ML Raw for some upcoming projects.

As far as the M50, I liked the footage I’ve seen from it. I like how you can use c-mounts for a pseudo 16mm look when shooting 4K, or if 1080p is good enough, you get a S35 image with DPAF.

You have a Z6, now? Why do you want to move to a different camera? With the ProRes Raw update coming shortly, I’d be pretty tempted to hold onto it and see how it pans out. Of course, I don’t know how long it will be before it’s available?

Oh, 30min of footage is not that bad since I only shoot really short sequences. I still had in mind the 12min, so this is quite good. I think the limit is in the offloading of CF card while on the field, but I could find a solution. Yes, I understand for the XT3, GH5 and P4K ; the image coming out from 5D ML seems to be a good cure for GAS ?. I don't even own one, but all the videos I see from it really magnetize my attention... I have to reason myself and think about all the "plus" and ease of use offered by all the available hybrids, to help me balance the decision ! But, still, that mojo... ahah !

Concerning the Z6, I had to sell it due to financial reasons (dead car... Had to prioritize my tight budget), despite being really pleased with it. I was eager to see the ProRes Raw update being available, but, now I think about it, I'm not sure it would has been a good match with my type of use. My camera lives mostly in a bag, and I pull it out during our activities to record short moments. We often encounter harsh conditions, hence the "live in the bag" thing, so I fear it would be a pain to add an external recorder on top of that. The last thing I want is to worry too much about the gear, and I try to avoid having the camera obstructing the rest.

That's where the 5D becomes interesting, despite the negative points : internal raw, mojo, really tough to endure crappy weather... Best thing would be to have a 5D and a small hybrid to complement it. Well, I guess I have to write everything on paper and try to make the most reasonable choice