Swapping the FS5 for a........ GH5?

[Ivanhurba]

1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

You could argue that i could put the FS5 on a quick release and fly it on a Ronin-M - however I've actually done that and I would come away from the shoot in absolute agony form operating. I don't enjoy being in agony, hence why i got the A6500 and Zhiyun Crane for gimbal work. Much easier and enjoyable. 

3

Lol man, no, I wouldn't suggest that. Why use a hammer when you can use a lock pick!

I have read the original post and you were commenting on getting rid of the FS5 but didn't comment that you had the a6500, man, you're already covered, I know 4k 60p is nice but it can wait at least a year I guess. Maybe get some apsc sony lenses, they're pretty cheap and at 1.8 you get a nice AF and DOF. For the price of the GH5 you could get the 10-18 f4 and the 24 1.8 the rest are cheap good priced lenses.

[Oliver Daniel]

1 hour ago, Ivanhurba said:

Lol man, no, I wouldn't suggest that. Why use a hammer when you can use a lock pick!

I have read the original post and you were commenting on getting rid of the FS5 but didn't comment that you had the a6500, man, you're already covered, I know 4k 60p is nice but it can wait at least a year I guess. Maybe get some apsc sony lenses, they're pretty cheap and at 1.8 you get a nice AF and DOF. For the price of the GH5 you could get the 10-18 f4 and the 24 1.8 the rest are cheap good priced lenses.

Yep, I am covered to some degree. 

The basis of the "debate" is to see if it would be more creatively beneficial for me to use the monster featured GH5 as an A-cam... and invest the cash into lenses and camera movement.

The A6500 isn't reliable enough to use on this basis - battery life is poor, it occasionally overheats, rolling shutter is awful and yesterday it crashed on me. That's not to say it's a huge asset for it's intended role. 4k and autofocus is amazing. 

I'm especially curious about Sony's new upcoming A7 cameras...... 

[Jonesy Jones]

4 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Yep, I am covered to some degree. 

The basis of the "debate" is to see if it would be more creatively beneficial for me to use the monster featured GH5 as an A-cam... and invest the cash into lenses and camera movement.

The A6500 isn't reliable enough to use on this basis - battery life is poor, it occasionally overheats, rolling shutter is awful and yesterday it crashed on me. That's not to say it's a huge asset for it's intended role. 4k and autofocus is amazing. 

I'm especially curious about Sony's new upcoming A7 cameras...... 

Well, for what it's worth, here's what I'd do.... and doing.

I'd switch to the GH5. We all know Canon will NEVER give you what you/we want for a reasonable and sustainable price. Sony will continue to deliver paper tigers but their awful color, rolling shutter, skinny codecs, and heating issues will plague your workflow. 

The GH5 really is a terrific camera. Honestly the footage is super solid, and we still haven't seen the 400 mb/s stuff yet. Great colors. You know as well as I do that clients can't tell the difference between an FS5 and a rigged up GH5. In fact, the rigged up GH5 will look cooler. Have a quick release plate on there and you are back to light and small. Or better yet, have a second GH5. Once you sell your current cams you'll easily be able to buy 2 GH5's.

Get ready for the EVA1. I know we haven't seen footage yet, but I am pretty sure this is going to be an amazing camera. And your soon to be bought GH5 will make an amazing b cam.

Here's a before and after still from my GH5 last night. 

[pablogrollan]

18 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

The basis of the "debate" is to see if it would be more creatively beneficial for me to use the monster featured GH5 as an A-cam... and invest the cash into lenses and camera movement.

Looking at your setup I seriously doubt a GH5 would boost your creativity... In some cases it is true that a better/more ergonomic/more versatile camera could enable you to do things you can't do with your current gear, but having an a6500 and an FS5... Come on! Both cameras are light, small and very capable -with some shortcomings, like every camera-.

I use the FS7 and the FS5 for paid work and frankly, if I don't enjoy as much as using a stripped small cam it is because I am WORKING. Even if your job is your passion, there's a tiny bit of pressure when there is a client, pressure to not screw up, to not miss any shots, to go on schedule and even pressure to "get it right" -sometimes you shoot and edit exactly what was agreed and scripted and the client doesn't like the final film and wants to re-shoot, re-edit or start from scracth-. There's also the fact that you are many times not shooting what you really want but what serves the client's purpose.

No matter what camera you use, nothing will compare to the joy of shooting with your small cam on vacation or shooting an improvised goofy short with friends. You'll always find more joy when you can experiment with lighting, camera angles, lens choices -or lack of, using just one- having the luxury to get it wrong or "not perfect". All that "dedicated video cameras kill creativity vs mirrorless open up new worlds" is the enthusiast/purist/idealistic/childish filmmaker in all of us talking. We've all felt a little bit that way some time or another, but deep down we know it's not true. It's the kind of BS that crumbles down the moment you are faced with the reality of the industry, its tight deadlines, its constant need for quick technical problem-solving, for formats that meet the detailed requirements, for footage that is easily cut with the rushes someone else has shot who knows where, for files that are platform and NLE agnostic...

Your tools are just that, and fatigue may set in no matter which tools you use. Take some time off, maybe? Try different projects? I, too run a production company and know more often than not this is not possible. If you find there's some limitation that really affects your work -what clients expect of you- such as 200p @ 8K then sure, look for a new tool that'll serve you. The FS5+RAW is a real workhorse, uncomfortable at times for sure, but it's a professional tool that gets the job done. The a6500 not so much -was never intended to- nor the GH5 nor any other camera that is not meant for that use, even if we all use them sometimes with mostly acceptable results.

I've been in your place more than once and what I learnt was to stop, leave emotions aside for a moment and objectively evaluate if the change is really going to have a meaningful positive impact in my workflow or what I offer to the client. Will it make you faster, more efficient or allow you to offer something clients might want that you can't give them now? If I were you I know I'd end up missing having proper internal ND filters, proper audio connections (even though I have a soundman recording externally) and the rest of the "little things" a dedicated video/cinema camera provides... even if the GH5 is a true accomplished camera.

14 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Sony will continue to deliver paper tigers but their awful color, rolling shutter, skinny codecs, and heating issues will plague your workflow.

Sure, like the F5, F55, FS7, FS5... if you use a prosumer stills camera with hybrid/video features, even if the specs are impressive and may deliver stunning results, do not be surprised if those things happen. I seriously doubt the casual street photographer shooting RAW stills is ever going to experience those problems.

14 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

You know as well as I do that clients can't tell the difference between an FS5 and a rigged up GH5. In fact, the rigged up GH5 will look cooler.

In a shooting there are things far more "impressive" than a rigged camera: large lights, grips running around, lots of stands with flags, cables, trucks, an old DP with his light meter... The rigged GH5 might be cumbersome and uncomfortable compared to an FS5, so the advantage of "going light and free" is lost. Even in a small shooting with few people, If my livelihood is at stake I'd always choose convenience/usefulness over looking cool... I'd probably choose a C300 or C100 over the GH5 provided the requirements of the project are covered with the C100 -even if it's not the best iq available-.

[Oliver Daniel]

14 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Sony will continue to deliver paper tigers but their awful color, rolling shutter, skinny codecs, and heating issues will plague your workflow. 

There's only one issue I have with the Sony workflow. 

It's Sony's implementation of white balance. It's not very good. 

You will balance it as correctly as you can, but when you make white "white", the image will be too blue, too magenta or too green depending on the conditions. There's many, many users trying Slog2 and Cine4 modes - yet what they are not doing is correcting the RGB balance in post to get nice colour. This is why we're seeing zombie Simpson-skin sickly images on Vimeo content.  

A typical colour workflow I go through on pretty much every edit for Sony footage is to correct white balance, balance RGB, decrease yellow / green globally, increase red saturation, move the red hue away from yellow so red is definitely red. Then apply a primer to increase the overall colour accuracy further. Then LUT away or whatever style. 

I find that the A6500 is very pleasant to work with - the colour is the best from this camera out of the entire range. No idea why. The FS5 is definitely trickier. 

15 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

The GH5 really is a terrific camera. Honestly the footage is super solid, and we still haven't seen the 400 mb/s stuff yet. Great colors. You know as well as I do that clients can't tell the difference between an FS5 and a rigged up GH5. In fact, the rigged up GH5 will look cooler. Have a quick release plate on there and you are back to light and small. Or better yet, have a second GH5. Once you sell your current cams you'll easily be able to buy 2 GH5's.

Get ready for the EVA1. I know we haven't seen footage yet, but I am pretty sure this is going to be an amazing camera. And your soon to be bought GH5 will make an amazing b cam.

Here's a before and after still from my GH5 last night. 

 

 

Yep, tried it briefly and loved it. 

I'm actually editing some 4k 10 bit GH% files alongside the FS5 and A6500 footage now

Borrowing the GH5 for a shoot next week

[Inazuma]

58 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I'm actually editing some 4k 10 bit GH% files alongside the FS5 and A6500 footage now

Borrowing the GH5 for a shoot next week

Please tell me what you think of the image  I'm going back into video work soon and am tossing up between and GH5 and A99 II. The GH5 + Metabones price comes up to similar to the A99 II. 

[tonysss]

17 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Here's a before and after still from my GH5 last night. 

What profile is used? V-log ?

[AaronChicago]

3 hours ago, pablogrollan said:

No matter what camera you use, nothing will compare to the joy of shooting with your small cam on vacation or shooting an improvised goofy short with friends. You'll always find more joy when you can experiment with lighting, camera angles, lens choices -or lack of, using just one- having the luxury to get it wrong or "not perfect". All that "dedicated video cameras kill creativity vs mirrorless open up new worlds" is the enthusiast/purist/idealistic/childish filmmaker in all of us talking. We've all felt a little bit that way some time or another, but deep down we know it's not true. It's the kind of BS that crumbles down the moment you are faced with the reality of the industry, its tight deadlines, its constant need for quick technical problem-solving, for formats that meet the detailed requirements, for footage that is easily cut with the rushes someone else has shot who knows where, for files that are platform and NLE agnostic...

Your tools are just that, and fatigue may set in no matter which tools you use. Take some time off, maybe? Try different projects? I, too run a production company and know more often than not this is not possible. If you find there's some limitation that really affects your work -what clients expect of you- such as 200p @ 8K then sure, look for a new tool that'll serve you. The FS5+RAW is a real workhorse, uncomfortable at times for sure, but it's a professional tool that gets the job done. The a6500 not so much -was never intended to- nor the GH5 nor any other camera that is not meant for that use, even if we all use them sometimes with mostly acceptable results.

I've been in your place more than once and what I learnt was to stop, leave emotions aside for a moment and objectively evaluate if the change is really going to have a meaningful positive impact in my workflow or what I offer to the client. Will it make you faster, more efficient or allow you to offer something clients might want that you can't give them now? If I were you I know I'd end up missing having proper internal ND filters, proper audio connections (even though I have a soundman recording externally) and the rest of the "little things" a dedicated video/cinema camera provides... even if the GH5 is a true accomplished camera.

I can hear Eminem's "Lose Yourself" playing over this.

[Jonesy Jones]

4 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

There's only one issue I have with the Sony workflow. 

It's Sony's implementation of white balance. It's not very good. 

You will balance it as correctly as you can, but when you make white "white", the image will be too blue, too magenta or too green depending on the conditions. There's many, many users trying Slog2 and Cine4 modes - yet what they are not doing is correcting the RGB balance in post to get nice colour. This is why we're seeing zombie Simpson-skin sickly images on Vimeo content.  

A typical colour workflow I go through on pretty much every edit for Sony footage is to correct white balance, balance RGB, decrease yellow / green globally, increase red saturation, move the red hue away from yellow so red is definitely red. Then apply a primer to increase the overall colour accuracy further. Then LUT away or whatever style. 

I find that the A6500 is very pleasant to work with - the colour is the best from this camera out of the entire range. No idea why. The FS5 is definitely trickier. 

One thing I've learned recently is that a good colorist can overcome nearly any camera's color flaws. Met this kid at NAB who could make nearly everything look super pro status, even Sony stills cams. This is why I am going to be focussing on learning CC. But also, if you really know the workflow with your cam then it doesn't really matter which cam you have. Philip Bloom shoots pretty much all Sony and his stuff looks great. 

My decision making is more philosophical. Most manufacturers are not going to give us what we want at prices that make sense for most of us. What can Sony really give us with the FS5 ii that won't eat into FS7 territory? Every camera from those manufacturers is strategically handicapped. This is poor philosophy. They are not thinking about us. They are not thinking win/win. It's a failing strategy. And strangely this is one of the few industries where this happens. Most products are designed strictly with cost and physics in mind. What BM and ML have shown us is that camera manufacturers are intentionally holding back. 

The 2 companies that do this the least are BM and Panny. And the GH5 is the fist time Panny's lower end model just sings right out of the box... Imo. And at the moment it sits in the perfect medium of size, features, and cost. 

You should probably just keep what you have if it's working for you. Personally I'm happy to not be in the Sony/Canon camp. 

2 hours ago, tonysss said:

What profile is used? V-log ?

Natural

[DBounce]

Just ordered a GH5, V-Log Update, two spare batteries, hotshoe audio adapter and a 16mm Veydra mini prime (wanted to try one before special ordering the full set). I'm hoping that this kit will deliver the image quality that I demand in video. If so, I'll pick up a second GH5 for a B-cam. I'm not sold on the IBIS yet... mainly because I would need to use Panasonic lenses, and that is not really a direction I want to head in. Also I changed my mind on the Metabones. I want to keep this system as light weight as possible, so the Metabones + my Canon lenses, seems... well, like a step in the wrong direction. If this setup works I will ditch my Letus Helix Jr and opt for one of the new 45˚ angle one handed gimbals. Lastly, I plan to add a Silencer Air remote follow focus. So I guess I'll have to let you know how that works out. I'm pretty pumped about this system. I believe this should come pretty close to the promise of the DJI OSMO Pro but without the compromises.

[hyalinejim]

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

I'm not sold on the IBIS yet... mainly because I would need to use Panasonic lenses,

You might be pleasantly surprised.The IBIS with non-Panny lenses is still very good. I stuck a Tamron 24-70 2.8 with Metabones XL on my GH5 and didn't notice a difference in IBIS performance compared to the kit 12-60.

[Jonesy Jones]

5 hours ago, DBounce said:

Just ordered a GH5, V-Log Update, two spare batteries, hotshoe audio adapter and a 16mm Veydra mini prime (wanted to try one before special ordering the full set). I'm hoping that this kit will deliver the image quality that I demand in video. If so, I'll pick up a second GH5 for a B-cam. I'm not sold on the IBIS yet... mainly because I would need to use Panasonic lenses, and that is not really a direction I want to head in. Also I changed my mind on the Metabones. I want to keep this system as light weight as possible, so the Metabones + my Canon lenses, seems... well, like a step in the wrong direction. If this setup works I will ditch my Letus Helix Jr and opt for one of the new 45˚ angle one handed gimbals. Lastly, I plan to add a Silencer Air remote follow focus. So I guess I'll have to let you know how that works out. I'm pretty pumped about this system. I believe this should come pretty close to the promise of the DJI OSMO Pro but without the compromises.

Yah, the IBIS works great. I mean it's not a gimbal or anything. But with my Sigma 18-35 I can hold it in my hands and shoot a short interview with very little and very smooth motion. At the wide end I can walk around without distracting jerking motion, or if I'm careful even the long end.

The only issue I don't like is that with a non native m43 lens you have to set the lens/IBIS focal length every time you turn on the camera or change the focal length. With a prime it's not really an issue but with a zoom it's a pain. I wonder if the Veydra's can communicate with the GH5?

[mercer]

On 7/6/2017 at 2:24 PM, Jonesy Jones said:

Well, for what it's worth, here's what I'd do.... and doing.

I'd switch to the GH5. We all know Canon will NEVER give you what you/we want for a reasonable and sustainable price. Sony will continue to deliver paper tigers but their awful color, rolling shutter, skinny codecs, and heating issues will plague your workflow. 

The GH5 really is a terrific camera. Honestly the footage is super solid, and we still haven't seen the 400 mb/s stuff yet. Great colors. You know as well as I do that clients can't tell the difference between an FS5 and a rigged up GH5. In fact, the rigged up GH5 will look cooler. Have a quick release plate on there and you are back to light and small. Or better yet, have a second GH5. Once you sell your current cams you'll easily be able to buy 2 GH5's.

Get ready for the EVA1. I know we haven't seen footage yet, but I am pretty sure this is going to be an amazing camera. And your soon to be bought GH5 will make an amazing b cam.

Here's a before and after still from my GH5 last night. 

Looks real nice, Jonesy. So, are you only using the GH5 now? Or do you still have the Ursa?

[Jonesy Jones]

36 minutes ago, mercer said:

Looks real nice, Jonesy. So, are you only using the GH5 now? Or do you still have the Ursa?

Thanks Mercer. I still have the UMPro, but not for long. I am starting a feature doc in a couple weeks and the GH5 is the perfect cam for this project. Thanks to @Andrew Reid's recent thread I have really embraced smaller lighter faster. I think the GH5 will be my cam for the foreseeable future.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Thanks Mercer. I still have the UMPro, but not for long. I am starting a feature doc in a couple weeks and the GH5 is the perfect cam for this project. Thanks to @Andrew Reid's recent thread I have really embraced smaller lighter faster. I think the GH5 will be my cam for the foreseeable future.

I've been starting to notice some better GH5 footage showing up in the wild. It should be a solid set up for a doc... is it a personal project or a paid gig?

[bunk]

3 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

I still have the UMPro, but not for long.

I really enjoyed grading the shot.

...but if I were you I would hold on to the Ursa just a little bit longer. Especially now you want to focus on grading.

All three have the same curve (red channel) applied. The Terra holds up, The Ursa holds up and the GH5 falls apart.

I think their compression tech is top of the bill ...so much that only after grading you find out that literally every nuance was squeezed out.

[AaronChicago]

6 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Thanks Mercer. I still have the UMPro, but not for long. I am starting a feature doc in a couple weeks and the GH5 is the perfect cam for this project. Thanks to @Andrew Reid's recent thread I have really embraced smaller lighter faster. I think the GH5 will be my cam for the foreseeable future.

Jonesy, curious about your choice. Other than size of the camera body - what do you like about the GH5 over the UMP for a doc?

[DBounce]

5 hours ago, bunk said:

I really enjoyed grading the shot.

...but if I were you I would hold on to the Ursa just a little bit longer. Especially now you want to focus on grading.

All three have the same curve (red channel) applied. The Terra holds up, The Ursa holds up and the GH5 falls apart.

I think their compression tech is top of the bill ...so much that only after grading you find out that literally every nuance was squeezed out.

Well hopefully the new 400 Mbps codec will fix this also. Not that most would every need such an extreme grade.

[Fritz Pierre]

Yes....extreme grade would be the understatement...if one knew the "look" you were going for, it would be simple enough to dial it in with a custom WB and then grade it to tune it...the 10bit codec is thick...colorists have stated that you can really push the GH5 footage....I'll be very curious of your impression of the Veydra prime....there's lovely footage of the Veydra's shot on a GH4 to an external recorder in 10bit....the GH5/Veydra combo should be killer.

[Jonesy Jones]

8 hours ago, mercer said:

 is it a personal project or a paid gig?

Personal

6 hours ago, bunk said:

I really enjoyed grading the shot.

I really like your grade. I really need to improve on my skills. I was going for something bolder since I've noticed that's very much the trend. But personally I tend to like subtle and flatter myself. Your's seems like a great all-around. Would be great if you could share your recipe.

6 hours ago, bunk said:

All three have the same curve (red channel) applied. The Terra holds up, The Ursa holds up and the GH5 falls apart.

I think their compression tech is top of the bill ...so much that only after grading you find out that literally every nuance was squeezed out.

I think the 400 mb/s codec is going to be interesting to see and could correct shortcomings. 400 mb/s is equivalent to Prores LT btw from a data rate standpoint. We'll see.

4 hours ago, AaronChicago said:

Jonesy, curious about your choice. Other than size of the camera body - what do you like about the GH5 over the UMP for a doc?

The doc I will be shooting is a travel/adventure doc... kind of. Just loads of handheld. As much as I love the UMP, the GH5 just makes way more sense. The cams I will be shooting with are the GH5, GoPro 5, Phantom 4, and iPhone 7.