Canon - the REAL technical and political reasons behind the lack of decent video

[PeterGregg]

I agree with many of your statements. One of the statements that you made that I don't agree with is not from this article. First, I am not talking in an adversarial way, so don't raise your shields You made a statement that Canon listens to their customers or photographers or something to that effect. I find from the D30/D60 on forward that isn't true at all. i chuckle when I read Denis Reggie or Jeff Ascough say to me that Canon is listening to them. In my opinion Canon listens to their internal minds, their own game plan, and in a very small very unique window of opportunity, I saw Canon very VERY eager to see what Nikon had up their sleeve at the announcement of the original Nikon D3 camera. At that time, the Canon people were scared sh#tless on what Nikon was launching - I saw it with my own eyes. Never saw that happen again. Leads me to the conclusion that we can add that Canon listens to ONE competitor's actions and products, and that is Nikon. Not Sony or Panasonic, and NOT their customers.

The pattern for Nikon these past few years has been that Nikon has become a sleeping cow. And Canon advancement has tracked Nikon's performance to a the letter. They have been sleepy and lazy because the competition they watch has slumbered off. It is history repeating itself. Pure video people are not going to understand this point of view (with exceptions). But i feel things are going to change. I think Nikon is going to spring out with DPF cameras in a sudden surprise move and start the Nikon Canon machine marching forward again. This isn't pie in the sky there is evidence. Canon will react to money (sales) and Nikon. That is it - end of story. Nikon is asleep - and therefore so is Canon.

Canon will advance with 4K in their cameras when it doesn't matter anymore. probably in about 3 year you will see 4K trickle down to the little cameras and the little people. The only thing to change this track would be Nikon jerking Canon's chain with a Dual Pixel Focus type camera somewhere in their product chain. My guess will be the D810 series with 4K and other goodies this year. Or another camera higher or similar in price next year. Then you will see Canon react. Canon doesn't give a crap about anything else, they have the sales and they have "their" competitor in a choke hold. Sony, Panasonic and Olympus are not competitors - to Canon. When I see comments like Sony is sweeping the market with their products, how many see Canon even blinking lol? Nikon, on the other hand is what moves Canon, can't say it any plainer than that. If Canon sales were going down the toilet, they would react to that too. Neither has budged, and Canon continues to report good sales to their board.

The only buy I can see for active use is the 1DX II. It too leaves a lot to be desired, but there is no other camera I see that can be a workhorse to deliver is a well rounded way. It lacks IS, movie controls, lightness and small size. But it delivers an amazing army of people behind it to keep you up and running (another thing movie people don't put enough sock in - try and get a Panasonic or Sony fixed, yes I know about the new NY and LA  centers lol. Chocolate bars for the kids basically. Go to a world event and Canon and Nikon have 18 wheelers full of bodies and lenses and techs to keep everyone up and running, this is more major than most people admit or recognize. Panasonic, Sony and company are "just" starting to make any noise in this area.

I read in this article something that caught my eye. Are you saying that the 1080 feed thru the HDMI is better than most would expect? i would like to know that, it is is true or not. Recording to a $400 Atomos to ProRes on an SSD at a great 1080 and getting pro level results would be a really appealing thing to read!

Also, got the new 2017 iMac i7 580 8GB GPU 40GB Ram yesterday. A 1 minute 5D4 MJPEG 4GB file transcoded to ProRes LT is 35 seconds. Straight from that file, color corrected and to H264 in 36 seconds (no pre-rendering). Color corrected and add a few plug-ins out in 55 seconds. MJPG jail has been cracked. Can work straight from the files, or transcode out to ProRes.

Please say more about the 1DX2 1080 HDMI output and quality.

Peter

[Ivanhurba]

2 hours ago, jax_rox said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Video shooters are not a huge market for Canon DSLRs and mirrorless. That's why the compromise you talk about has come at the costs of video. That's why they're attempting to develop better photo feartures first. Does that mean they couldn't have developed the technology to do everything you want? Course not. But obviously their focus is and always has been still shooters in the DSLR line-up. That's why they have a Cinema EOS line-up to cater for video shooters.

Sony and Panasonic don't/didn't have the established customer base and were/are much more able to be nimble and take bigger risks. That's why they were able to make such a dent.
 

2

I know a lot of friends who bought a DSLR because it had video, Nikon lost lots of customers this way at the end of last decade. Now these people have a mirrorless or simply bought a better mobile phone because of 4k or just because they don't want to carry more than one piece of gear. That's on the amateur team. On the pro side, people keep using old DSLRs for photography or moved to Sony, Pana or Fuji for the convergence. I've been a jumper. I left Nikon for Canon and toyed with my good old Gh2(v). The GH4 was great but it's the GH5 that's making me leave Canon.

I was going to comment this on Redshark's article that looked promoted by Canon saying that 4k on a photo camera is ridiculous but I'm sure it's better here. In Slovakia there's a strange wedding tradition that nobody knows how the hell started. After the ceremony everybody, and I mean everybody congratulates the couple in a big queue. For a photographer is a nightmare. I was getting between 400 to 600 pictures just from that (people shaking hands or hugging and kissing, not a creative subject) and as you can imagine there are misses, which I wasn't sure if they were important or not. Now I just make a goddam 4k video and extract the best JPEG from there (EDIT: with my RX10II, that's why I'm waiting for the GH5). No more choosing between six photos with no good expression. Now I'm getting 24 and one is always good. It's a blessing. With 8k, or 4k 10bit and a good EVF for proper exposure I'm half certain photos won't be necessary outside of the fancy portrait with flash sessions. There, my 2 cents; I feel much better after saying that.

Canon can limit their DSLRs how they want and offer ridiculous mirrorless that no vlogger will use, they're just shooting themselves in the foot and losing credibility. I'm not recommending them anymore to my friends. They'll be soon the horse carriage in a combustion car world. 

[Michal Gajdoš]

8 hours ago, Mahmoud El-Darwish said:

Step back and take a breath.

Canon product development aren't stupid. Neither are they at Nikon. And Nikon is barely at the hybrid video/stills party.

So what's at play?

Pure business strategy.

You touched on it.

Camera companies could care less what Andrew Reid or I have on a wishlist.

Why bother compete with Sony/Panasonic?

We sometimes forget that Japanese manufacturing operates as a giant consortium, with players 'accommodating' each other in support of the bigger picture.

This is not 1950 where companies don't give a damn about customer's preferences, How arogant you must be to think so little. Of course they care. "pure" business strategy wil lgive you nothing when all your customers will enjoy competitor's products. don't be naive, these companies exist because we buy their product (not me, has not give a single euro to canons crap)

[UncleBobsPhotography]

24 minutes ago, jonpais said:

 "Also, this is the first I've read that Canon is following Nikon's lead... Are  you a board member of Canon? If not, how can you be so certain that Canon will offer 4K in 2020?"

"Then you state that 4K won't matter any more in a few years, but I could just as easily say that 4K will be more relevant than ever in three years. How are you so sure that Nikon is going to spring DPAF on us? Wouldn't that be a case of Nikon following Canon, rather than the other way around?"

This is how I interpreted Peter:

1) Canon is following Nikon the same way Intel is following AMD. Being the market leader they want to keep the status quo and have to follow Nikon/AMDs progress to keep the status quo but has little motivation to innovate beyond this.

2) In a few years 4k will be a given for every camera, so it wont matter in regards to pushing innovation or cannibalizing their Cinema lineup.

[Michal Gajdoš]

2 hours ago, jax_rox said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Video shooters are not a huge market for Canon DSLRs and mirrorless. That's why the compromise you talk about has come at the costs of video. Th

any data to support this ? i could say as well and make my assumptions e.g. I see hundredrs of people walking around and making videos. "For photos iphone is good enough" and other similar assumptions. Clearly there is a lot of people complaining about video features (their sensors are still the weakest) in canon DSLRs. Look here how many people are happy with the canon here ? but hey, panasonic and sony heck even olympus and fuji, seems to justify our needs better. And if such a small companies can do it better, then it just proves that canon is living in another planet. 

26 minutes ago, Ivanhurba said:

I know a lot of friends who bought a DSLR because it had video, Nikon lost lots of customers this way at the end of last decade. Now these people have a mirrorless or simply bought a better mobile phone because of 4k or just because they don't want to carry more than one piece of gear. That's on the amateur team. On the pro side, people keep using old DSLRs for photography or moved to Sony, Pana or Fuji for the convergence. I've been a jumper. I left Nikon for Canon and toyed with my good old Gh2(v). The GH4 was great but it's the GH5 that's making me leave Canon.

I was going to comment this on Redshark's article that looked promoted by Canon saying that 4k on a photo camera is ridiculous but I'm sure it's better here. In Slovakia there's a strange wedding tradition that nobody knows how the hell started. After the ceremony everybody, and I mean everybody congratulates the couple in a big queue. For a photographer is a nightmare. I was getting between 400 to 600 pictures just from that (people shaking hands or hugging and kissing, not a creative subject) and as you can imagine there are misses, which I wasn't sure if they were important or not. Now I just make a goddam 4k video and extract the best JPEG from there (EDIT: with my RX10II, that's why I'm waiting for the GH5). No more choosing between six photos with no good expression. Now I'm getting 24 and one is always good. It's a blessing. With 8k, or 4k 10bit and a good EVF for proper exposure I'm half certain photos won't be necessary outside of the fancy portrait with flash sessions. There, my 2 cents; I feel much better after saying that.

Canon can limit their DSLRs how they want and offer ridiculous mirrorless that no vlogger will use, they're just shooting themselves in the foot and losing credibility. I'm not recommending them anymore to my friends. They'll be soon the horse carriage in a combustion car world. 

I could nnot have said it better myself, and this is a prime example of a customer that canon has lost. Think again if these numbers are not relevant. YES talking to all you guys who think of Canon as some business, strategic GOD ! 

pekny napad so 4k videom na gratulacie ! drzim palce nech sa dari 

[douglaurent]

Spending a second to think about new Canon products is a complete waste of time until they probably release a full frame mirrorless camera in 500-1000 days, which then at least might have a 10% chance of being competitive against Sony products (I say that owning a 1DC, 1DX2, 5D4, the whole Canon lens lineup and much more).

Part of the slow innovation even might be forums like CanonRumors, who are full of Canon fanboys defending their brand, so that Canon marketing might think everything is alright.  If you just list pure facts how Canon is behind in features at CanonRumors too often, you get banned - the site has the same lamel spirit as Canon.  The administrator even x-es out single words if you write something like "SonyAlphaRumors".  Some in the Canon community are like Trump and Trump voters, trying to undermine the credibility of those who criticize with nothing else but the truth.

In the end - no matter if it's Canon or Canon websites - it's all about the revenues.  The only answer of users who want to see improvements is that no money and attention should go in these directions, until they change their policies.

[jonpais]

25 minutes ago, UncleBobsPhotography said:

This is how I interpreted Peter:

1) Canon is following Nikon the same way Intel is following AMD. Being the market leader they want to keep the status quo and have to follow Nikon/AMDs progress to keep the status quo but has little motivation to innovate beyond this.

2) In a few years 4k will be a given for every camera, so it wont matter in regards to pushing innovation or cannibalizing their Cinema lineup.

Thanks for the clarification, however, as Mr. Gregg never even mentions the Cinema lineup, I don't think you can give him that much credit. He completely fails to acknowledge that Canon is cynically protecting their expensive, high-end cameras.

[Eno]

@Andrew Reid

Thank you for the pertinent article!

[Tim Sewell]

All I can say is that out of the ~20 people I know who own Canon DSLRs only 2 or 3 have ever even tried their camera's video mode.

[theraywong]

12 hours ago, Michal Gajdoš said:

Enjoying your recent articles very much ! Feels like good old times :)! Eoshd renesaince !

I agree! This is why EOSHD exists - to stimulate and be a forum for lively debate! David and Goliath!

[ND64]

1 hour ago, Tim Sewell said:

All I can say is that out of the ~20 people I know who own Canon DSLRs only 2 or 3 have ever even tried their camera's video mode.

Its was 0 when Nikon introduced DSLR video in D90. 

[Andrew Reid]

10 hours ago, maxotics said:

Went to ML forum to get more specifics, to flesh out my memory.  Until 2013 there was a lot of discussion about 10/12-bit RAW, then things went dead.  On May 11, 2016, A1ex, one of the lead devs posts some findings based on an "@d".  He refers to the raw_twk thread which itself dies in 2014, but picks up again in 2016.  I assumed "@d", came and went in 2016, but he was active in 2013, only made 6 posts, then disappeared.  So it looks like he had a good insight into 10/12 bit video, back in 2013, but it  forgotten until A1ex re-visited it in 2016.  "d's" future game-changer post is here: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5601.msg38946#msg38946   Maybe he re-signed onto ML using a different name and is active today.  I don't know.  I shouldn't have speculated he was a Canon insider because it doesn't look like I can have any fun here   The main point is that Canon cameras can do a lot more than they do from the factory and that 10/12 bit RAW is more evidence of that.  I was supporting the argument of the original story.

 

Ah I see your point now. I'd still give the credit to A1ex over a Canon insider though. It's very unlikely they've had leaks from Canon programmers. The results would have been more significant and have more impact.

[maxotics]

Yes, I agree with you.  A1ex is brilliant.  My understanding is that 12-bit it really just the 14-bit values with the top 2 bits cut off, which are usually over-exposed data that isn't used.  Now that I have a C100 I can see the difference between it and Canon's 80D H.264 and 7D RAW.  The 80-D video, as you point out, has a nice color feel, but looks soft next to C100 AND the 7D RAW.  The 7D RAW has a grainy, organic film-grain look, that for my money, can match the clean image of the C100.  The only thing that stops me from using the 7D lately is the 4 gig a minute recording.  I just want to say again that the 7D RAW camera is the best deal out there!

Canon doesn't make their own sensors.  Is Sony squeezing them?  Maybe it's a sensor issue that is preventing canon from offering 4K on full-frame cameras.  Yet, if that's the case, all the more reason for them to compete with Sony using firm-ware, like RAW.  I don't get it.   

[Andrew Reid]

Canon DO make their own sensors.

They have also bought in Sony chips occasionally like the 20MP 1" CMOS.

Canon's sensors put out a raw image on every single one of their cameras and the 80D is no different, they have always led the way with 14bit colour, very good sensor output, the problem comes to when this is hacked down to the stock H.264 video mode and the lack of willingness to employ a pixel binning method on the sensor that makes a bit of effort to reduce moire & aliasing. They have only done it twice - with the 5D Mark III and 1D X / 1D C 1080p.

The 80D doesn't just look soft compared to Magic Lantern raw. It lacks the dynamic range, the colour depth, the colour sampling and the uncompressed look.

So in danger of going over the same ground we've been going over since 2010 with Canon, perhaps for sake of expediency we should stop trying to defend them and disagreeing with me when I call them out, and get fully behind the campaign to have them give us better value for our money.

7 hours ago, jax_rox said:

There's significantly more data to process on a full frame sensor in 4k vs an m4/3 sensor. 

I have to correct you here.

A 20MP or 24MP crop sensor is the same amount of pixels as a 20MP or 24MP full frame sensor!

13 hours ago, Mahmoud El-Darwish said:

So what's at play?

Pure business strategy.

Trust me it's not a good business strategy to leave 4K and good video features out of the 6D Mark II.

It wouldn't even have hurt the profit margin of the camera as the technology already exists and is cheap to implement.

They've lost tens of thousands of sales.

13 hours ago, Mahmoud El-Darwish said:

Camera companies could care less what Andrew Reid or I have on a wishlist.

They do. Why else do they listen?

13 hours ago, Mahmoud El-Darwish said:

Why bother compete with Sony/Panasonic?

Why bother?! Because those are your direct competitors in photography and video!

13 hours ago, Mahmoud El-Darwish said:

We sometimes forget that Japanese manufacturing operates as a giant consortium, with players 'accommodating' each other in support of the bigger picture.

Speculation.

[Cinegain]

Canon needs someone like Kazuto Yamaki (CEO @ Sigma). Just someone who's genuinely passionate about photography, quality and the business in general. Some that knows his stuff.

 

Maybe he should give Canon a masterclass on business management and integrity. If you want a great appreciation for Sigma, and how it's run, then watch these vids. Canon... go watch 'em too.

Maybe the big guys over at Panasonic might pick up a thing or two as well, like in terms of presentation and coming across that you know your company and products through and through... though, without that we wouldn't have the priceless expression of Sean at 1:00. Atleast he gets the importance of 4K.

 

[aldolega]

7 hours ago, jax_rox said:

There's significantly more data to process on a full frame sensor in 4k vs an m4/3 sensor. 

How so? How would, for example, a 12MP A7s have more data to process than a 20MP GH5?

[Andrew Reid]

I agree 100%. Canon need a change of management in Japan with relation to the photographic business as they are killing enthusiasm for the products with the laser-focus on profit margins.

[tomekk]

28 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

So in danger of going over the same ground we've been going over since 2010 with Canon, perhaps for sake of expediency we should stop trying to defend them and disagreeing with me when I call them out, and get fully behind the campaign to have them give us better value for our money.

Good point, I'm in. Guys, Canon is behind on the stills side too. Merely catching up with Nikon's old full frame cameras in their newest products. It's a bigger issue, IMHO. They could blow competition out of the water if they wanted. Who else could come up with a completely new eos cinema line in such a short time just after seeing what one of their dslrs had done by accident back in 2008! 

[Andrew Reid]

On the stills side they are behind with mirrorless, with no real premium or pro model. The M5 is a PowerShot, basically.

The lens range just isn't there for Canon in mirrorless and that takes a lot of time to develop.

They have no presence in medium format either.

Their 50MP sensor is behind Sony's 42MP on noise, 4K video, dynamic range, etc.

5D Mark IV sensor is behind Sony as well.

So yeah, photographers are starting to shuffle in their seats as well.

[UncleBobsPhotography]

13 minutes ago, aldolega said:

How so? How would, for example, a 12MP A7s have more data to process than a 20MP GH5?

I'm also curious to find out what makes 4k harder on larger sensors. It seems like it's much more difficult to read the data off of a full frame sensor, but I don't understand why. My guess is one of the following: it is harder to process the data/charge from the larger photo sites, the physical distances makes data transfer harder, or the overall size of the chip generates too much heat. Any better guesses?