Canon - the REAL technical and political reasons behind the lack of decent video

[Mattias Burling]

Ive never seen anyone here or on another forum claim that mirrorless isn't the future.
All I see is some people who get that there are advantages to both systems today, and that one is selling better than the other today.

 

[Andrew Reid]

16 hours ago, Arikhan said:

@Andrew Reid

I doubt it...I'm shooting Open Air and Club Concerts. Sometimes 6-10 hours (Open Air) continuously. Last summer I shot a concert at about 39 degrees Celsius with a buddy - 4 cameras for photography (Canon 7D, 2 5d m3 plus 1 Sony A7R ii for testing purposes) and 2 cameras for filming (NX1 + Nikon D750). We hadn't all cameras all time with us, some were for hours in the car...And in the car there were about 72 degrees Celsius...

A high performance Ferrari isn't going to be as reliable as a Toyota you drive to the supermarket.

The NX1 is many many times the performance of the Canon and Nikon cameras in terms of the internal processing.

Personally I've never had it crash due to heat.

It crashes on occasion due to the firmware, the hack, and the fact Samsung have stopped patching it.

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The NX1 freezed during filming about three times, the A7R ii during taking photos about 8 freezings with shutdown...NOT one problem with a Canon or the D750. Just working....

What lens did you have on the A7R II? If it's via an adapter then it may not even be the fault of the camera.

Personally I have never ever had my A7S II crash during a stills shoot.

Or a video shoot, come to think of it.

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Sony E-Mount cameras - I shoot with the A6500 (my mom's cam) too... - I hold in my hands have an exceptional image quality, the eye AF is insane, there are many aspects I love...Very good technology, BUT: As cameras, they are unreliable PURE GARBAGE. Who needs cameras overheating, freezing and shutting down? NOONE who does serious work, other people have to rely on...Not to discuss on usability and BS ergonomis of the Sony brigade...

I'm sorry you had a worse than average experience. It's not normal.

Sure, with certain cameras especially the A6500's lack of conservative heat-management, Sony do need to focus on that last 1-2% of reliability but I'd rather the occasional hang in high performance mode than a permanently crippled low performance mode as found at Canon and Nikon.

By the way people should be careful about using stats like "in 2013 Mirrorless was only 5% of shipments"

Shipments can go down at same time as sales going up, for example if the models are high-end like the A7R II as they are sold for a much higher price but in smaller quantities than the low-end mirrorless shite by the bucket load.

[Jimmy]

Canon's trump card is it's lens collection. That's what stops the vast majority of people switching.

As long as they are king of the lenses, they can play catchup on the camera itself. It might seem backward, but that is the truth for many, many professional photographers.

For video, they clearly see 1080p as fine for the consumer and 4K as pro only. So many choices now that I don;t know why anyone gives a shit anymore. If you truly love the Canon look, get a 5Diii, 7D etc and hack it. Should we have to hack a camera to get it to 2017 specs? No.... Can we, hell yea!

[Arikhan]

@Andrew Reid

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Personally I've never had it crash due to heat.

I never said, it crashed because of heat...It crashed (freezed up) on this very hot day...I hadn't it on same usage (very hot, long day of permanent shooting) since then. Latest (last) firmware, NO hack, 45mm 1.8 lens in usage....

BTW: I had my cheap FZ1000 in permanent usage (wide, documentary 1080p 50p video shots) the whole day on a tripod in plain sun...Sometimes switching it on to record, then in sleep mode. The little Pana never had a problem....

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What lens did you have on the A7R II? If it's via an adapter then it may not even be the fault of the camera.

Nope, no adapter...Just the native E-Mount 70-200 for testing the A7R ii...LCD going black sometimes, it took 10-15 seconds to recover and shutdowns - and I missed shots...

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A high performance Ferrari isn't going to be as reliable as a Toyota you drive to the supermarket.

Hehe, yeah...But I wouldn't ever buy a "Ferrari", uncapable to bring me to a supermarket...A car, unable to do a normal drive, is NOT a Ferrari...At most a self proclaimed Ferrari...A defective Ferrari will never win a race, it will stay half the time in a garage for repair... 

Who buys a Ferrari which overheats on a sunny day and has some other problems on rainy days? And be "undisposed" on a frosty day? 

[Andrew Reid]

Don't go on about your Toyota at a Ferrari enthusiasts club.

[Arikhan]

I am NOT explecetely a Toyota fan. I simply like a certain degree of reliability...

And remember: Before Ferrari got World Champion in F1, it was a very unreliable car...It was more a myth than a usable race car. After Michael Schumacher got there and explained the Maranello "enthusiasts", that a race car has to complete a race for winning, they got more reliable. Reliability and well building can be very boring, but it's simply necessary for winning races over 40+ rounds...

[Andrew Reid]

Yes and Canon will never build an F1 car, they have resigned themselves to uninspired reliable work tools and even the odd exciting office photocopier!

Performance / reliability is always a compromise.

It was Ross Brawn at Ferrari who made them reliable by putting good technical structures and procedures in-place, like post-race debrief sessions, parts compliance, better standards at the factory, etc. and Michael Schumacher was just a technically gifted driver, I sometimes think Schumacher gets too much credit for turning around the team when it was actually Brawn and the existing backroom staff. If you are an F1 fan get Total Competition by Ross Brawn and Adam Parr, a very good read!

[Arikhan]

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Performance / reliability is always a compromise.

Exactly...Canon has to learn IQ & feature performance and Sony has to learn how to build cameras apart from selling wonderful technology in a "unhandy, tightly filled plastic bag"...

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 If you are an F1 fan get Total Competition by Ross Brawn and Adam Parr, a very good read! 

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll take a look...

BTW: It was you @Andrew Reid who said in an article something like "Sony A6x00 feels like a genious brain in a body of an idiot..." 

[cantsin]

20 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Canon need a change of management in Japan with relation to the photographic business as they are killing enthusiasm for the products with the laser-focus on profit margins.

MagicLantern gives us some insight on that laser-focus, too. That Canon has switched the internals (firmware/operating system, likely also electronics) of the EOS-M series from EOS xxxD to PowerShot, is genius from a cost-saving business perspective. But terrible from a technological point of view.

[tomekk]

3 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Im not sure what you are asking. You can use what ever lens you like. Put an equal lens on a DSLR and it will focus faster. Its one of the main reasons DSLRs still outsell mirrorless.
It will track better to.

For my needs mirrorless is fine. I don't use a DSLR. I shoot mostly manual focus.
But full time pro photographers needs to cover a wider spectrum of styles.
Not to mention in lower light situations, then my X-Pro2 and the X-T2 I had is hunting all over the place.

Hasn't A9 proved mirrorless can be at least equal or better than current top of the line DSLRs? 

[tomekk]

54 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

It was Ross Brawn at Ferrari who made them reliable by putting good technical structures and procedures in-place, like post-race debrief sessions, parts compliance, better standards at the factory, etc. and Michael Schumacher was just a technically gifted driver, I sometimes think Schumacher gets too much credit for turning around the team when it was actually Brawn and the existing backroom staff. If you are an F1 fan get Total Competition by Ross Brawn and Adam Parr, a very good read!

Doesn't this prove that it's actually possible to up the reliability on an already high performance car ?

[Andrew Reid]

It's always a compromise.

The most reliable F1 car does not last for 10 years like your reliable town run-about does it?!

The engine goes pop after 2 or 3 races and the parts have an ultra short lifespan.

They get through a race reliably... That is different.

[much]

I can tell that canon is really playing and I'm pissed ... I have 2 6d bodies and used c100 with atomos for external performance - all bought last year. I'm a full time wedding videographer and sometime music videos, commercials etc cinematographer - what c100 is for. This year I have a big dilemma cause I was waiting for 6d mk2 4k video... And I'm sooooo disappointed. I still wait for c100 mk3 with 4k but that will not happend I guess in near future and if it happens my guess is lack of 60fps in 4k and 4.2.0... I did invest in canon L glass and i love the quality and batteries... I love the color straight from camera with a little touch in post. Now i would like to jump to 4k with FF and at least 60fps... I was thinking about 5d mk4 and 1dx mk2 but the file size would be enormous 2.5 terrabyte per wedding. Next is memory cost witch is insane almost half the price of new 5d mark 4... (calculated with backup) Then there is the c200 and i love almost every aspect of this camera.... but i do live in europe and need to pay extra tax money for it... For example 2x c200 in Europe is almost 3x c200 in US.......... I do have a sony rx100mk4 for super slowmotion but i don't like the body, menu colors and this odd database creation...?

Now i'm serious about sony and I'm waiting for a7s mk3 wich i hope will be much better then c200 is with 4k at least 60fps and 4.2.2 10bit 

sorry for my grammar but i'm pissed :P 

[tomekk]

31 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

It's always a compromise.

The most reliable F1 car does not last for 10 years like your reliable town run-about does it?!

The engine goes pop after 2 or 3 races and the parts have an ultra short lifespan.

They get through a race reliably... That is different.

Yeah, but they increased reliability and kept performance, so it can be upped to get the job done for the task it was built for, right? If you target race, get it reliable enough to get them through a race. Likewise, if you target pros get them reliable to get them through their "race". It's not impossible and Sony A9 is an example (or it's next iteration will be).

BTW. Modern town cars don't last much longer than warranty period ;). It's a design/business choice. Keep cars cheaper so people can "afford" them by using worse parts and make money on parts afterwards as a part of the business.

[Andrew Reid]

I'd rather have what I need, with the occasional glitch, than have the feature lacking entirely.

[BTM_Pix]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes and Canon will never build an F1 car, they have resigned themselves to uninspired reliable work tools and even the odd exciting office photocopier!.

It was Ross Brawn at Ferrari who made them reliable by putting good technical structures and procedures in-place, like post-race debrief sessions, parts compliance, better standards at the factory, etc. and Michael Schumacher was just a technically gifted driver, I sometimes think Schumacher gets too much credit for turning around the team when it was actually Brawn and the existing backroom staff.

Hang on.

Its a Brawn F1 car sponsored by Canon.

Proper grassy knoll territory now

 

[tomekk]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I'd rather have what I need, with the occasional glitch, than have the feature lacking entirely.

Me too, if I'm not in a situation where I can't have another shot but that's a different camera, different target buyer and different race to get through. The key is to have options so we can choose the best camera for our needs :).

[mercer]

3 hours ago, much said:

I can tell that canon is really playing and I'm pissed ... I have 2 6d bodies and used c100 with atomos for external performance - all bought last year. I'm a full time wedding videographer and sometime music videos, commercials etc cinematographer - what c100 is for. This year I have a big dilemma cause I was waiting for 6d mk2 4k video... And I'm sooooo disappointed. I still wait for c100 mk3 with 4k but that will not happend I guess in near future and if it happens my guess is lack of 60fps in 4k and 4.2.0... I did invest in canon L glass and i love the quality and batteries... I love the color straight from camera with a little touch in post. Now i would like to jump to 4k with FF and at least 60fps... I was thinking about 5d mk4 and 1dx mk2 but the file size would be enormous 2.5 terrabyte per wedding. Next is memory cost witch is insane almost half the price of new 5d mark 4... (calculated with backup) Then there is the c200 and i love almost every aspect of this camera.... but i do live in europe and need to pay extra tax money for it... For example 2x c200 in Europe is almost 3x c200 in US.......... I do have a sony rx100mk4 for super slowmotion but i don't like the body, menu colors and this odd database creation...?

Now i'm serious about sony and I'm waiting for a7s mk3 wich i hope will be much better then c200 is with 4k at least 60fps and 4.2.2 10bit 

sorry for my grammar but i'm pissed :P 

Don't be pissed, even if the 6D2 had 4K, I think you may have had unrealistic expectations.

If you need all of those specs, you should have bought a GH5 before this season started because you can't get them for $5000 with a Canon and it will probably be another few years, if ever, that they offer 10bit 4K at 60p in a consumer DSLR. 

If there is any truth to this rumored FF mirrorless, that will be the most telling about Canon's intentions going forward with video in a stills/hybrid form factor.

[Mattias Burling]

How could anyone think the 6D would get 4K that they waited... its just so weird to me. The chance of it was so so so slim.

Just compare the original 6D to the 5Dmkiii. Why would that suddenly change?

[noone]

On ‎4‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 3:32 AM, Arikhan said:

@tomekk

I need reliable devices NOW. Not in one year or two, or five...Capture the moment NOW...No need to use unreliable junk, there are enough good photography cameras on the market you can use in EVERY condition.

BTW: Focusing moving subjects in low light / difficult back lit scenes (eg. fast moving musicians on stage or in a dark club atmosphere) with a Sony E (excepting the new A9) is a joke...Simply not possible. That's where a D5/D500/D750 excels. With a D5/D500 you can even focus fast moving black holes in dark caves... 

I never have any problems shooting fast moving musicians on stage or in dark club atmosphere with my lowly old Sony A7s and I wouldn't trade the A7s for any of those Nikons for what I shoot either.