Canon - the REAL technical and political reasons behind the lack of decent video

[noone]

How about a faster moving band?     I have not shot any really fast moving bands for a while, maybe the last was the US rock band 10 Years (those guys are nuts and the lead singer was literally hanging from the roof upside down while singing).

[Arikhan]

@noone

Nice work noone...If you visit Germany till middle August, I seriously invite you to shoot some festivals with me. I like low light shootouts and with a a7s (ii) in your hands, you should be a serious competitor....It would be a lot of fun...

[noone]

Just now, Arikhan said:

@noone

Nice work noone...If you visit Germany till middle August, I seriously invite you to shoot some festivals with me. I like low light shootouts and with a a7s (ii) in your hands, you should be a serious competitor....It would be a lot of fun...

Thanks but I cant even afford a bus ride to the other side of town at the moment and when I do have a little bit of money soon I "need" a Sony FE 85 1.8.

[Arikhan]

Are some of your shots focused manually? Could you share some details (lens, aperture, shutter...)?

[noone]

52 minutes ago, Arikhan said:

Are some of your shots focused manually? Could you share some details (lens, aperture, shutter...)?

The wide angle shots are with the 17 f4 L TS-E and manually focused.        The individual shots are AF with the Canon 135 f2 L -since sold the lens  though AF is  slow it still works).     The wide angle 10 Years shots are ISO 40,000 and 16,000 I think at 1/2000.    The lighting at the 10 Years show was very varied from almost completely dark to blindingly bright and changed in a instant.       The 17 TS-E and I will use anything from f4 to f8 depending on DOF requirements but for individuals I will usually use f2 or a bit stopped down (2.8 with the 150mm).    I have auto ISO set to either 51200 or 102400.     

I recently had an ISO 102400 shot used by a newspaper as their Face Book cover photo for a while.

The main lens I use for AF with the A7s is currently the 55 1.8 and it works very well for AF and even in really low light (almost no light and it still focuses well).    The camera can not AFC at all really* but AFS is very good as far as I am concerned and even the fastest moving bands don't move very far generally (*I do think the A7s CAN use AFC in video mode for slower paced musicians or stationary or nearly so ones with a lens like the 55 1.8 but for video, I mainly use the 17 for anything more than a duo).

I want the 85 1.8 as I just want a third native AF lens (besides the 55 and 28-70 kit lens which I also like as a choice when I am being lazy) but otherwise will use a MF FD 85 1.2 L or Canon EF 100 f2 (AF or manual) or Sigma 150 2.8 EF mount (usually but not always MF on the A7s and AF on M43 where the AFS is close to natively fast.

Recent AF shots with the 55 1.8 though the lighting isn't too bad (ISO 6400 1/2000 f2.8) and( ISO 125 1/8000 f2)

 

[Andrew Reid]

Guys, DM each other if you want to have an off-topic discussion about your photos.

Not in this thread, thank you.

[noone]

Sorry!      Delete them if you prefer please.

[Michal Gajdoš]

On 4.7.2017 at 4:18 AM, jax_rox said:

 

'I know a lot of friends' and 'I see a lot of people making videos' does not equate to large market research. Despite near constant complaints on here about 'lack of video features' they still have - and have for the past 14 years - the #1 global market share for the DSLR and mirrorless camera segment.

Anecdotes about what you 'see' mean absolutely nothing. 

And yet, they continue, for 14 years in a row, to be the #1 seller of DSLR and mirrorless cameras in the entire world... Shouting in an echo chamber for too long can become dangerous...

 

God damn, this forum is freaking cancer, you people, who cannot STILL realize, let me remind you camera market is shrinking faster than iceberg which hit titanic and mostly DSLR segment. Those people are the SAME people who constantly shout that CANON is still leader of the global camera market (it is true, but only of DSLR, well guess what is happening to DSLR), well great, a polished shit a still shit, look at the "huge" size of the market, of which the canon is number 1. Still dont see it ? let me help you translate. See that low numbers of DSLR, that is what canon is leader of. Yes yes you are completely right, canon is leader, but of an ever shrinking portion of a declining market, (which is perfectly most due to the incompetence of NIKON and CANON making a camera that appeals to the millions of people who are used to smartphones.) so yes please continue your blah blah about canon being a leader, while ignoring these huge changes. Oh you probably also forgot about this (https://photographylife.com/sony-overtakes-nikon-in-full-frame-sales) but who cares right ? canon still dominates. Oh and please dont even bother to reply if you try and say some crap about canon not depending on camera division and another blah blah. they are to blame, did nothing for 15 years but artificially slow the innovation, and now specifically under deliver on their cameras. Why would anyone even want a camera that doesn't show you what the picture's gonna look like in 2017, wake up. Mirrorless or whatever Litro is the future, if there even gonna be any for camera companies, again thanks to incompetences of canon and nikon. 

 

@Ivanhurba summed it up perfectly 

On 4.7.2017 at 9:53 AM, Ivanhurba said:

Of course you can say that DSLRs are not mobiles or horses, but hey, I would stop lying to yourself. fifteen years, that will take more or less and we're already halfway there. From wikipedia:

@Trek of Joy you gonna enjoy this. "cheers"

[Andrew Reid]

Well, it's nothing to celebrate. Canon and Nikon had to start innovating but I feel the boat has sailed a bit now... Is it too late? For online services, social media, smartphone cameras and the like, it probably is. If Canon had bought Instagram, etc. when they had the chance, different story. They didn't see it coming, they didn't see a future in that particular industry or the benefit of it to their core products. This may be over-simplifying it a bit but it gives you the general idea of the problem, of having 75 year old management guys in charge in Japan.

Canon may end up being more of a business-to-business company than a consumer facing one. They won't mind because it is whatever makes money, but the cultural loss to photography of their poor form will be felt.

Look at how quickly analogue sales dropped in just 5 years to practically nothing with the advent of affordable digital cameras between 2001-2005.

[Michal Gajdoš]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

This may be over-simplifying it a bit but it gives you the general idea of the problem, of having 75 year old management guys in charge in Japan.

IT is precisely what is happening. Can you blame the customers? hell no. Companies are building products people don't want. It never fails to surprise me how arrogant photography community (and the photography companies especially) are. It's 2017 , SEVEN years after instagram was created yet not a single camera has a direct button for instant sharing on social platforms :-D . Yes, it is stupid instagram, but look how many people are there and how many photos are being published there, if you want people to use your cameras instead of cameras on their smarphones you have to adapt and persuade them, that investment in your product is worth it. What did we get instead ? higher mgpx on every camera, wifi and NFC implementation which is pure headahce (IMHO sony & GoPro are the best so far, but still far faaaar away from please to use) the list of shortcommings goes on and on... go and tell the management of canon that this is important... lol i bet they will listen to you, when even some members of this forum don't get it. But hey , "canon is the global leader"

[mercer]

The problem with this rationale is the false notion that 4K video will save Canon. And that is simply not true. And this false narrative that Canon hasn't innovated in the past ten years, with video, is absurd. I could easily argue they've been more innovative than every other company...

• 1st camera to offer manual video

• 1st camera to offer 4K video

• 1st camera with a LOG Profile.

• 1st camera(s) to offer usable Touch/Tracking AF

• 1st camera to offer 4K 60p

In this arena, Canon will always cater to their stills customers. The 6D2 is a stills camera with plenty of upgrades for a stills shooter. Look at their promotional videos that highlight their cameras video capabilities... they hire stills shooters to video them.

[Michal Gajdoš]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

The problem with this rationale is the false notion that 4K video will save Canon. And that is simply not true. And this false narrative that Canon hasn't innovated in the past ten years, with video, is absurd. I could easily argue they've been more innovative than every other company...

• 1st camera to offer manual video

• 1st camera to offer 4K video

• 1st camera with a LOG Profile.

• 1st camera(s) to offer usable Touch/Tracking AF

• 1st camera to offer 4K 60p

In this arena, Canon will always cater to their stills customers. The 6D2 is a stills camera with plenty of upgrades for a stills shooter. Look at their promotional videos that highlight their cameras video capabilities... they hire stills shooters to video them.

Kodak was the first to use digital sensor

Nokia had the first touch screen display

GM was the first to offer electric vehicles

What does it matter being first. The problem with canon is the same as your argument. It's more than five years old, they have not moved since. 

Is is so much to ask for a competing product from canon ?! others can do it, why can't canon?! it's as if BMW, mercedes, toyota and Renault were all offering flying cars but Audi refuses to do so, even though customers want to. 

And no, no matter what argument you bring, canon 6d ii is not on par with competition (as long as video is concerned, photo side it's nothing special, nothing to wait 4 years for). 

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, Michal Gajdoš said:

Kodak was the first to use digital sensor

Nokia had the first touch screen display

GM was the first to offer electric vehicles

What does it matter being first. The problem with canon is the same as your argument. It's more than five years old, they have not moved since. 

Is is so much to ask for a competing product from canon ?! others can do it, why can't canon?! it's as if BMW, mercedes, toyota and Renault were all offering flying cars but Audi refuses to do so, even though customers want to. 

And no, no matter what argument you bring, canon 6d ii is not on par with competition (as long as video is concerned, photo side it's nothing special, nothing to wait 4 years for). 

The real problem is, that no matter what argument I, or others, bring... you will not accept it. In your mind, cell phones will ruin all camera sales, so what's the difference?

The problem is professionals purchase cameras based on lenses and until Sony, Panasonic, Fuji and Olympus build their lens line up, Canon and Nikon will be selling to the professional and cater to the professional stills camera shooter.

And if a professional needs video, they hire a camera suitable to the job.

And your irrelevant references to Kodak, Nokia, etc... will not change the facts.

Mirrorless still only accounts for 25% of sales and I am sure Canon is aware of trending markets. The idea that some guys on an Internet forum knows better than the leaders of a billion dollar company that has been in the lead with sales for decades is quite frankly laughable. 

[Trek of Joy]

5 hours ago, Michal Gajdoš said:

 

@Trek of Joy you gonna enjoy this. "cheers"

Your data is old. Through the first six months of this year - according to CIPA - shipments and sales of ILC's are up over last year. You still offer zero in terms of actual facts to back your assumption anecdote filled argument. And a graph still doesn't say anything about the state of Canon from a financial standpoint. Again 10q and 10k's are your friends.

Cheers

[Andrew Reid]

Mercer is annoying to debate with because he keeps switching the subject when somebody tries to take his point on.

At the least, stick with one line of argument for longer than 10 minutes, to reduce the frustration factor.

So what if Canon had a lot of firsts with the 1D C? It was also the first DSLR priced $12,000!!

The first with an MJPEG codec for 4K instead of a much better suited one like ProRes!

And since that vintage year, 2012 to be precise, we've had Dual Pixel AF and fuck all else.

By the way, the real smoking gun is what Magic Lantern reveals about features being intentionally switched off...

The 5D Mark III came out as a 1080/24p camera, maximum 30p, with 720p over HDMI.

It was actually a 1080/60p camera with 1080p HDMI.

So explain that.

[Arikhan]

@Michal Gajdoš

Quote

 

Kodak was the first to use digital sensor

Nokia had the first touch screen display

 

Both are dead now...

Quote

What does it matter being first.

Obviously - from your own examples - NOT. Further...Yahoo, Altavista, first mover - and dust now....Google was NOT first mover. But it's a successful company.

It's not important to be first mover, it's much more important to have a successful & sustainable business strategy. Economy is NOT about dreaming around or beeing "first mover". It's survival of the fittest...At long term...

GM? Just saying to lower their sales expectations for 2017...Just another patient in coma...

Personally I don't like this idea at all, but nowadays general economic power and market share sometimes just kill innovations / an innovative attitude....

[jydurocher]

On 2017-07-03 at 1:59 AM, jax_rox said:

Sony and Panasonic don't/didn't have the established customer base and were/are much more able to be nimble and take bigger risks. That's why they were able to make such a dent.

A bit unfair for Sony. They started the movement with the Mavica, and the whole A line is simply the extension of Minolta. And they are letting this base die, going full blast on the E line. Where they discover that they are competing against themselves as not a single normal human being is able to see the difference in picture quality between any digital camera over 3K$. We are back to the good ole' video days when you would show Joe Public an image on a Conrac (later on Barco) and the cheapest colour set and he would prefer the cheaper one with its gaudy colours.

I would say that the real disrupters are RED and Blackmagic, especially the former who has bought a lot of excellent technology from the Brits, they are now able to furnish a whole studio if not station.
 

 

[wolf33d]

+1 to this article.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Mercer is annoying to debate with because he keeps switching the subject when somebody tries to take his point on.

At the least, stick with one line of argument for longer than 10 minutes, to reduce the frustration factor.

So what if Canon had a lot of firsts with the 1D C? It was also the first DSLR priced $12,000!!

The first with an MJPEG codec for 4K instead of a much better suited one like ProRes!

And since that vintage year, 2012 to be precise, we've had Dual Pixel AF and fuck all else.

By the way, the real smoking gun is what Magic Lantern reveals about features being intentionally switched off...

The 5D Mark III came out as a 1080/24p camera, maximum 30p, with 720p over HDMI.

It was actually a 1080/60p camera with 1080p HDMI.

So explain that.

Sorry if I change the subject, not my intention. These discussions become ever evolving and a lot of times I skip pages and respond to specific posts.

As a whole, I agree that Canon's progress has been slow and I also agree they're missing out on a market but I wouldn't be so hyperbolic to say they don't innovate at all or will go out of business because they haven't included 4K in enthusiast and consumer lines of cameras.

But to address your specific points... okay it was $12,000 and it was in 2012 but it was still 2 years before another company offered 4K in a DSLR form and arguably still has a better 4K image than its competitors.

DPAF is a pretty substantial development and probably ate up a lot of their R&D budget over the past few years.

Your other points I agree with, in fact, I agree with most specifics of every argument and point you made in your post. I just disagree that the lack of 4K in their consumer line will have lasting effects on their sales.

They are a frustrating company because I love a lot about their cameras, or what was pulled from their cameras, but I also want some modern conveniences like peaking, zebras, IBIS, etc... especially since when Canon gets around to implementing these features, there's no doubt in my mind, they'll work better than their competitors variants. For example, focus peaking on the XC10 and the EOS-M models is the best peaking I've used.

Out of curiosity, when you were asked to review the 5D4, was it inferred they were looking for a fluff piece? Or were they genuinely interested on your take of its video? Did they seem open to suggestions, or just looking for online coverage?

[ND64]

42 minutes ago, mercer said:

Sorry if I change the subject, not my intention. These discussions become ever evolving and a lot of times I skip pages and respond to specific posts.

As a whole, I agree that Canon's progress has been slow and I also agree they're missing out on a market but I wouldn't be so hyperbolic to say they don't innovate at all or will go out of business because they haven't included 4K in enthusiast and consumer lines of cameras.

But to address your specific points... okay it was $12,000 and it was in 2012 but it was still 2 years before another company offered 4K in a DSLR form and arguably still has a better 4K image than its competitors.

DPAF is a pretty substantial development and probably ate up a lot of their R&D budget over the past few years.

Your other points I agree with, in fact, I agree with most specifics of every argument and point you made in your post. I just disagree that the lack of 4K in their consumer line will have lasting effects on their sales.

They are a frustrating company because I love a lot about their cameras, or what was pulled from their cameras, but I also want some modern conveniences like peaking, zebras, IBIS, etc... especially since when Canon gets around to implementing these features, there's no doubt in my mind, they'll work better than their competitors variants. For example, focus peaking on the XC10 and the EOS-M models is the best peaking I've used.

Out of curiosity, when you were asked to review the 5D4, was it inferred they were looking for a fluff piece? Or were they genuinely interested on your take of its video? Did they seem open to suggestions, or just looking for online coverage?

If EOS-M focus peaking is the best you've ever used why its not available in your even more expensive EOS-non-M camera? Its not hardware limitations.