jonpais Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 lenstip's review copy of the Leica DG Summilux 12mm f/1.4 was also decentered, but to the best of my knowledge, they are manufactured by Panasonic, so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted July 27, 2017 Super Members Share Posted July 27, 2017 1 hour ago, meanwhile said: I really hope they don't: I like getting problems fixed. Not like today with for example Sony that rather release a new camera than fix the one they had. 18 minutes ago, jonpais said: lenstip's review copy of the Leica DG Summilux 12mm f/1.4 was also decentered, but to the best of my knowledge, they are manufactured by Panasonic, so... I thought that was a m4/3 lens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 and your point is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcs Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 On 7/21/2017 at 5:29 AM, BTM_Pix said: Turns out the TL2 is much improved right up until the point you attach their Visoflex EVF at which point it, erm, breaks. Sales suspended until they fix it and seems as big a failure in testing as Leica have had since they decided on Victoria Beckham as a good candidate for a bit of celebrity product placement. What? That's the ND for a nuke photo. jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meanwhile Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 10 hours ago, Mattias Burling said: I like getting problems fixed. Not like today with for example Sony that rather release a new camera than fix the one they had. Has any Sony had un-fixed problems as one as the ones Leica actually "fixed"? Not that I've heard of. And isn't shipping a majority of lenses - simple 50mm primes, not even complex zooms - below standard a problem? And a focusing system that constantly drifts out of adjustment and can only tuned at a service centre with a lengthy wait? I think most people would say so. Afaik, Leica are the leaders in unfixed problems. If you're using their core product you have a substantial and irreducible risk of losing entire shoots due to focus problems and there is no way that the camera can be fixed to remove this risk. None. 11 hours ago, jonpais said: lenstip's review copy of the Leica DG Summilux 12mm f/1.4 was also decentered, but to the best of my knowledge, they are manufactured by Panasonic, so... Everyone ships some de-centred lenses. Or at least lenses that are de-centred by the time they reach the customer. The problems with Leica are - - You're paying a huge premium for quality and service - Their quality control seems to be worse than everyone else - Their service is much worse than everyone else. Compare 6 months of waiting for a faulty Monocrom to have a component replaced, with no communications, to Nikon's shutter replacements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meanwhile Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 11 hours ago, jonpais said: lenstip's review copy of the Leica DG Summilux 12mm f/1.4 was also decentered, but to the best of my knowledge, they are manufactured by Panasonic, so... Everyone ships some de-centred lenses. Or at least lenses that are de-centred by the time they reach the customer. The problems with Leica are - - You're paying a huge premium for quality and service - Their quality control seems to be worse than everyone else - Their service is much worse than everyone elses. Compared 6 months of waiting for a faulty Monocrom to have a component replaced, with no communications, to Nikon's shutter replacements. Or again https://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130826_2-LeicaM240-freeze-reset.html 11 hours ago, jonpais said: lenstip's review copy of the Leica DG Summilux 12mm f/1.4 was also decentered, but to the best of my knowledge, they are manufactured by Panasonic, so... Everyone ships some de-centred lenses. Or at least lenses that are de-centred by the time they reach the customer. The problems with Leica are - - You're paying a huge premium for quality and service - Their quality control seems to be worse than everyone else - Their service is much worse than everyone elses. Compared 6 months of waiting for a faulty Monocrom to have a component replaced, with no communications, to Nikon's shutter replacements. Or again https://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130826_2-LeicaM240-freeze-reset.html 11 hours ago, jonpais said: lenstip's review copy of the Leica DG Summilux 12mm f/1.4 was also decentered, but to the best of my knowledge, they are manufactured by Panasonic, so... Everyone ships some de-centred lenses. Or at least lenses that are de-centred by the time they reach the customer. The problems with Leica are - - You're paying a huge premium for quality and service - Their quality control seems to be worse than everyone else - Their service is much worse than everyone elses. Compared 6 months of waiting for a faulty Monocrom to have a component replaced, with no communications, to Nikon's shutter replacements. Or again https://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130826_2-LeicaM240-freeze-reset.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 In any case, for $2,000, there's no way I'd choose this over a comparably priced X-T2 or GH5, let alone the Sony a6500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meanwhile Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 11 minutes ago, jonpais said: In any case, for $2,000, there's no way I'd choose this over a comparably priced X-T2 or GH5, let alone the Sony a6500. You'd have to have a real fetish for polishing, yes. The Lecia Q made more sense - if only the FL had been 35mm and there had been X100 style converters for 28 and 50, and the Leica QA problems had been fixed, that would have been a formidable camera. Of course, it was effectively a full frame Panasonic. Which leads to the thought that one day Panny could disrupt the fullframe market. jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted July 28, 2017 Super Members Share Posted July 28, 2017 Ive switched from the XT2 to the Xpro2 which is nice. But since rebuying the Leica T it gets very little use. If you use one and "get it" instead of trying to fight it the results are amazing. And its a pleasure to use. My X-pro2 is now for sale if anyone is interested Btw, I shot a side by side and the 24mp vs 16mp isnt enough for the Fuji XF 23mm WR to outshine the Leica 23mm. It really is like Torsten Overgaard says. Sharpness is so much more than what a number in a lab can show you. At the end of the day, specs doesn't mean jack.. it seems we can never be reminded of this enough. I know I keep forgetting it 1 hour ago, meanwhile said: And a focusing system that constantly drifts out of adjustment and can only tuned at a service centre with a lengthy wait? Yeah two hours at the local shop is such a long wait... we all know Sony support is stellar... lol! BTW, what non drifting modern range finders are you comparing to? Because I know of none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meanwhile Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 44 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said: Yeah two hours at the local shop is such a long wait... we all know Sony support is stellar... lol! The sources quoted had to wait a month or more. So, not really much of a counter argument, yes? Not that it would be even if it was widely true. Who wants to do a shoot with their hideously expensive camera and find out that it is junk because the focus alignment drifted again? Focus alignment should stay aligned. Or failing that, it should be easy to check and easy for the user to re-tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted July 28, 2017 Super Members Share Posted July 28, 2017 Still waiting on you to tell me which modern, non drifting and now also cheaper range finder you are comparing to? Because I know of none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted July 29, 2017 Super Members Share Posted July 29, 2017 Just for a bit of balance regarding service turnarounds, Nikon had a D4 of mine for so long I thought I was going to have to put a picture of it on milk cartons. They then had to have it back to remedy the botched fix for another period of time where their radio silence had me on the verge of demanding a picture of it with a daily newspaper as proof of life. And if you ever have a Hasselblad that shows a calibration error prepare to tearfully wave it off on its journey by rowing boat to Denmark. A slow rowing boat. With a paddle missing. Fortunately, this gives you enough time to save up for the bill. So whilst I'll still maintain the Leica EVF thing is ridiculous from a testing perspective, things are not always sweetness and light when it comes to premium products from other manufacturers either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meanwhile Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 23 hours ago, Mattias Burling said: Still waiting on you to tell me which modern, non drifting and now also cheaper range finder you are comparing to? Because I know of none. I'm sorry; I wasn't aware that you'd asked such a question. Probably because it has nothing to do with the claims that I was concerned with - ie that Leica quality and service are better than those of Sony, Panasonic, etc, so I automatically tuned it out as irrelevant junk. Doubly so, because people who actually care about their work care about end results only. They don't fetishize having a particular focus system - they just want one that works. But, yea, if you want a toy of that particular kind rather than a camera, you're stuck with Leica. Me, I'll buy a camera as a camera - a machine for creating images. True story: a Leica owner complimented me on my "Leica". It was actually a Fuji XE2 with a piece of tape over the logo - I can't stand visible text on a camera where the subject might focus on it if I'm shooting portraits or fashion - but that isn't the funny part. He told me'd changed to a Leica because it let him choose where the focus went in his image. I explained to him how to place a focus point - no, he had no idea that he could have done that with his previous camera. And no, he had no idea what dof was, or focus and recompose error, and yes, he was shooting at wide apertures. Such are Leica's customers, and that's why they can combine the highest prices with the worst quality control. 41 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said: Just for a bit of balance regarding service turnarounds, Nikon had a D4 of mine for so long I thought I was going to have to put a picture of it on milk cartons. They then had to have it back to remedy the botched fix for another period of time where their radio silence had me on the verge of demanding a picture of it with a daily newspaper as proof of life. And if you ever have a Hasselblad that shows a calibration error prepare to tearfully wave it off on its journey by rowing boat to Denmark. A slow rowing boat. With a paddle missing. Fortunately, this gives you enough time to save up for the bill. So whilst I'll still maintain the Leica EVF thing is ridiculous from a testing perspective, things are not always sweetness and light when it comes to premium products from other manufacturers either. I'm not sure that any maker can actually claim to be good. What I am sure of is that anyone who thinks that Leica are providing a higher level of service or quality control is provably wrong - they are probably among the worst out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted July 29, 2017 Super Members Share Posted July 29, 2017 1 hour ago, meanwhile said: I'm sorry; I wasn't aware that you'd asked such a question. Probably because it has nothing to do with the claims that I was concerned with. This is what you said. Quote And a focusing system that constantly drifts out of adjustment and can only tuned at a service centre with a lengthy wait? So, what other modern and cheaper range finder that doesn't drift or who's manufacturer has faster service are you comparing to? I know you don't mean Sony sine their customer service is the worst in the universe and they don't make range finders. And since getting a range finder adjustment is like changing spark plugs on a car. Something simple that can be done in almost any camera repair shop in a few hours. I guess the brand you are talking about should be able to fix things quicker. Also this magical brand will have no critics and bug reports if I google like you did. So which is this super brand that gets everything right and has blazing turn around? PS. rhetorical question and I won't read your smart response. I think I will end this conversation with a very common conclusion of random Leica haters. You have never tried the TL2 and you have never owned any other Leica. You don't know what you are talking about you just want to ventilate some built up jealousy. I also suspect that you don't "get" photography as an art and you base your knowledge on numbers and charts. Im Out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meanwhile Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 7 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said: This is what you said. So, what other modern and cheaper range finder that doesn't drift or who's manufacturer has faster service are you comparing to? Like I said, I don't care who else makes a rangefinder camera. I won't use a bad rangefinder camera if there are good non-rangefinders available for a fraction of the price. And I don't consider Leica's rangefinderness to be relevant to a claim that they give better service than Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. Because, sanely, it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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