Ollywood88 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Hi Guys. I have been looking at getting a used 1DC for a while now B can to my c500. Few questions 1. Is it worth it? I think the image is great out of this camera. 2. What's the workflow like? 3. I know it's 1080p out the HDMI. But can you use say a small HD focus to monitor and still record 4K internally? 4. Any accessories a must have? I was looking at the 5D mk4 but the crop factor was a big decider for me. Thank you in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 1) Sounds like you answered your own question? Personally I don't think it is worth it, but it is a fairly subjective question. 2) You'll be having to deal with more data than any other non-raw 4K camera 3) Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted July 11, 2017 Administrators Share Posted July 11, 2017 10 hours ago, Ollywood88 said: 1. Is it worth it? I think the image is great out of this camera. The image is indeed the best you can get for the money, in an all-round sense. Although the GH5 has higher frame rates, 4K 60p, less rolling shutter. It is a very special look from the 1D C and even in 1080p I quite like it, in full frame with Canon LOG it's a more cinematic 2K image than everything else as long as you don't expect a boat load of sharpness like a GH2. The build quality is stunning and as a stills camera I still rate it the best around. The 1D X II doesn't beat the image in stills mode or video mode. It only really offers autofocus improvements. 10 hours ago, Ollywood88 said: 2. What's the workflow like? The only considerations are practical. The image is almost perfect. The file sizes are very large in 4K. You cannot quite edit MJPEG smoothly, even on a high end machine. You need to transcode the files to ProRes and that takes some time out of your 'flow'. The MJPEG files can safely be deleted once you convert to ProRes but you'll still need huge amounts of hard drive space to store a year's worth of work either way. Converting to H.264 is still an option though. 10 hours ago, Ollywood88 said: 3. I know it's 1080p out the HDMI. But can you use say a small HD focus to monitor and still record 4K internally? Yep. That 1080p 1.3x crop image in 4K mode out of the HDMI by the way is very nice by-itself if you ever want the best 1080p from this camera direct to ProRes with a Ninja Star, smaller file sizes than 4K and no MJPEG transcoding, this is the way to go. 10 hours ago, Ollywood88 said: 4. Any accessories a must have? The form factor isn't ideal for video with no articulated screen and it's quite a heavy camera with no in-body stabilisation, so start from those 'problems' and find what suits your needs. 10 hours ago, Ollywood88 said: I was looking at the 5D mk4 but the crop factor was a big decider for me. Thank you in advance I am warming a bit to the 5D Mk IV for DPAF and 1.64x crop can be very nice with certain lenses like the Sigma 20mm F1.4, but it does kill the full frame aesthetic whereas the 1D C's 4K is 1.25x crop horizontally so you see much more of the full frame look of the lens (although the crop is more extreme if you measure diagonally). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 23 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said: The build quality is stunning and as a stills camera I still rate it the best around. The 1D X II doesn't beat the image in stills mode or video mode. It only really offers autofocus improvements. Actually the 1Dx II still image have more DR from 100 up to 400. Is in most test and having both 1Dx and 1Dx II the difference is there and quite a bit in shadow recovery. Of course not really a key point for the OP. 25 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said: The only considerations are practical. The image is almost perfect. The file sizes are very large in 4K. You cannot quite edit MJPEG smoothly, even on a high end machine. You need to transcode the files to ProRes and that takes some time out of your 'flow'. The MJPEG files can safely be deleted once you convert to ProRes but you'll still need huge amounts of hard drive space to store a year's worth of work either way. Converting to H.264 is still an option though.. I don't know what Andrew uses as NLE and machine but this is not correct at least for what I do almost every day. I can only speak for Resolve on Windows because this is what I use but Resolve handles 4k MJPEG super well. in fact there is no performance benefits in transcoding to DNxHD. Even on a Notebook like a Dell XPS 15 7700HD GTX 1050 you can edit in real-time with super fast scrubbing even the 60p MJPEG (double the work for the pc than 1Dc files). I do all my editing and grading on a Asus Rog gaming notebook 7700 HQ, GTX 1070 and I never ever transcoded any of my 1Dx II MJPEG. With the CFast you can even edit directly from the card so in super urgent cases I can even skip the copy to pc.... Probably it will work from a fast CF card too. Naturally the archiving size is big so you need to factor this in. Bottom-line at least with Resolve on Windows a desktop PC around 1500 USD (Quad core modern I7 and 6GB graphic card) will be more than enough for real-time editing and grading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollywood88 Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 Thanks everyone for your feedback. Is the file size a lot larger than a Canon C500? It was mainly a B Cam so cutaways really and crash cams and the odd camera for travelling for compact. Just love the image. I think it still wipes the floor with the A7 range and they are still good. Is the 1080p image nice in Super 35mm? Heard great things about it or its it the 4k image that just excels? Someone has offered me 2600.00 with cards that is in UK Pounds. Which I think is a steal. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted July 11, 2017 Super Members Share Posted July 11, 2017 At that price, if you hate it, you'll get your money back on it all day long. Oddly enough - if as most 1DCs its got sub 20K clicks on it - you could probably make a profit selling it to someone who wants a 1Dx as you won't get any change out of £3K for a similar one of those. And the 1Dx is likely to have had a much tougher life so the 1DC would be a much more attractive proposition. I have a rapidly expiring Nikon D4 and the at these prices the 1DC is batting its eyelashes at me as exactly that sort of proposition. I have enough short to medium Canon glass to use it for work alongside the Nikon for long stuff and of course I get a massive bonus feature thrown in with the 4K. I already get some open mouthed reactions from other photographers when covering games with a combined Nikon and Fuji setup but its nothing compared to doing it with an unholy alliance of Nikon and Canon! I did it a few years ago and people looked genuinely frightened at what might happen mercer, Nikkor, Mattias Burling and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timotheus Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 21 hours ago, Ollywood88 said: I was looking at the 5D mk4 but the crop factor was a big decider for me. Don't discard some mighty fine APS-C glass you can use, and that DPAF is great. mercer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRenaissanceMan Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Timotheus said: Don't discard some mighty fine APS-C glass you can use, and that DPAF is great. Sadly, none of the Canon stuff, as they don't let you the EF-S glass on full frame bodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted July 11, 2017 Administrators Share Posted July 11, 2017 You can pop the rear cap off some of the Canon EF-S lenses and they'll work. Not all though. Sigma crop lenses do work on EF. 18-35mm even covers the full frame sensor at the long end Of the full frame lenses, the Sigma 20mm F1.4 will still give you a full frame look on 1.6x crop, it's beautiful. Anything fast aperture and you are set to go although a 50mm can feel too long for a standard lens and not long enough as a useful telephoto (prefer 85mm on crop sensor) - so be sure to pack a good 35mm for an all-round focal length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 21 hours ago, IronFilm said: 2) You'll be having to deal with more data than any other non-raw 4K camera Eh? 4k prores is bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted July 12, 2017 Administrators Share Posted July 12, 2017 Nope, depends on the flavour of ProRes. ProRes LT for example is considerably smaller than MJPEG 500MBit/s, yet is 10bit 4:2:2. MJPEG is only 8bit! It's a shit codec. It truly is! IronFilm and webrunner5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Exactly, bit silly to compare data rates of an 8bit vs 10bit file as a way to explain away the shitty 8bit codec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: Nope, depends on the flavour of ProRes. ProRes LT for example is considerably smaller than MJPEG 500MBit/s, yet is 10bit 4:2:2. MJPEG is only 8bit! It's a shit codec. It truly is! I take the shitty codec any day instead of the super mega h264 LGOP 4:2:0........ the only good DSLR codec will probably be the ALL-I 10bit h264 of the upcoming GH5 firmware but is also big at 400 Mbits... Of course ProRes would be better but there is no DSLR at the moment that has it. You want edit ready and quality you will have big files.... MJPEG is around 30% less efficient that more modern codec... but until the new firmware for GH5 nobody has yet implemented a 4k All-I 4:2:2 on a DSLR.... Best would be to have both so you can chose quality and edit-ability vs. storage cost... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted July 12, 2017 Administrators Share Posted July 12, 2017 There's no excuse for MJPEG. Clearly Canon doesn't want to pay Apple the licensing fee for ProRes! How much would this be per camera? $5 extra? Even the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera had ProRes... for $1000... Yet Canon can't do it for $4000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: There's no excuse for MJPEG. Clearly Canon doesn't want to pay Apple the licensing fee for ProRes! How much would this be per camera? $5 extra? Even the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera had ProRes... for $1000... Yet Canon can't do it for $4000? 5$ for prores and 3$ for a cooling fan like every single prores capable camera.... fan in a weather sealed body is not the best idea.... I'm the first one hoping for something better but there must be a reason why since 2012 no camera manufacturer is able to put a pro codec on a dslr? xc and Cxxx Canon cameras all have a cooling fan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted July 12, 2017 Administrators Share Posted July 12, 2017 Who says it needs a fan just because it has ProRes? It doesn't. There's plenty of devices that do realtime ProRes encoding with no fan. DNxHD would be another choice... I don't know why these companies stick to H.264 and MJPEG as if they are the default choice codecs for acquisition and editing... They're not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 On 12/07/2017 at 4:27 AM, Andrew Reid said: Nope, depends on the flavour of ProRes. ProRes LT for example is considerably smaller than MJPEG 500MBit/s, yet is 10bit 4:2:2. MJPEG is only 8bit! It's a shit codec. It truly is! There was a lot of tests done in the HD times where people always recommended NOT using Prores LT. I never did my own tests but always in HD we did use prores hq files. So what happened? In 4k quality doesn't matter anymore? Prores proxy files look like shit and LT is 2x jump from that. Is it enough? But why are we comparing prores to mjpeg? The other DSLR/Mirrorless cams use 100mbit/s h264 files. Are they enough? If they are then why isn't 150mbit/s enough in the C200? Confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 12 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: Who says it needs a fan just because it has ProRes? It doesn't. There's plenty of devices that do realtime ProRes encoding with no fan. DNxHD would be another choice... I don't know why these companies stick to H.264 and MJPEG as if they are the default choice codecs for acquisition and editing... They're not I agree that prores and or DNxHD would be the best but can you name at least one camera that does 4k ProRes or DNxHD that does not have a cooling fan? Arri, Red, Canon Cxxx, Blackmagic, DJI all have cooling fan and if I'm not mistaken only BM ursa can do 4k 60p in prores the others they all max out at 4k 30p (for higher framerate they use other codec mostly raw...) The problem is that currently there seems that there is no chip that can do ProRes, DNxHD and even XF AVC at 4k without needing a fan. h264 has become so common on consumer devices that the HW implementation is easy to find and are so efficient that they don't require a cooling mechanisms. I'm not an expert in external recorders but as far as I know all the portable recorder that do Prores have fan, but if you know some that do not have a fan or a super large external heat sink and happy to know. I hate Canon for crippling stuff and omitting feature like no CLog on 1Dx II, no zebra, no peeking on higher models, no live waveforms or histogram... my Phantom 4 Pro has all these feature... but considering that nobody else has managed to put a pro codec on a DSLR I strongly believe it is a technical challenge. Of course they could put a fan on a DSLR but then it would be better to spec up the C100.... a C100 that does 4k 60p even only at 8bit XF AVC 300 Mbits/ 500 Mbits for 4.5k would sell much more than a DSLR with a fan for 3.5k.... I would agree that they could have offered both h264 100 mbits or so and MJPEG so you can chose by your needs. Expecting a large sensor DSLR fully weather sealed to do 4k 60p ProRes maybe at 3k usd when all the very expensive top of the line cameras have fan and cannot even do 4k 60p in prores is non realistic. We will get there but not yet. webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted July 13, 2017 Administrators Share Posted July 13, 2017 XF AVC is just H.264 and a marketing label for H.264 does not make it run hotter than a standard chipset Depending on the GPU / CPU, some modern day semiconductors in PC can encode ProRes without even spinning up the fan... Just needs a heatsink. Ultra thin laptop for example. Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera did 2K ProRes on a now very old chip and not even the most efficient sensor and chipset of the time 4 years ago! 4K ProRes on the Blackmagic Production Cam remember... Fan was virtually silent on that one and barely a vent in sight. Again very old inefficient chip by modern standards. Again... It's simply a case of manufacturers D- for effort, profit ahead of the user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Sure you are right is very simple just put macos and an intel i7 and problem solved. Maybe in a nice mirrorless camera with a tiny battery?. In fact is soo easy that nobody has achived yet to do prores on a fanless camera.... But yeah the fan on these cameras is for drying hairs? You are aslo right a closed sealed body vs. a fan spinnig low is exacltly the same..... and dslr have so much headroom in thermal that is absolutely uneard of dlsr overheating while filming 4k so lets put faster cpu in there... I agree with you that it could be developed but the cost is just too much for a low volume device compared to notebook and phones.... I think we got really ot.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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