IBIS with GX85 and G85, Is it the same? Problems when PANNING, Help appreciated!

[mercer]

Man, you're starting to get some color mojo.., I am digging the muted colors. The first few seconds I thought were ProRes but when you started panning, I wasn't so sure. Either way, the color is looking pretty damn good. 

[PannySVHS]

4 hours ago, jonpais said:

@PannySVHS Here are a few slow and fast pans I just did in the alley.

 

 

Holy Spaghettoni! Thank you very much, Jon! This is a great test and i can see jitter. It is less than the jitter in my pans. That´s due to your awesome 12mm Leica lens:) and

the distance between the camera and the buildings. It would be much stronger, if about 3 to 6 foot away from the stores. GH5 seems to have the same problem as

seen in the videos above. Jon, what´s your conlusion to your test? Thanks a lot again. Watched your Leica Nocti vid again on this occasion:)

Color lookin very nice!

 

6 hours ago, meanwhile said:

It really would help people help you if you give more details.

 

I did. Please see my previous comments in this thread: I´m doing slow movement, tracking works fine, etc. Also the GH5 videos are illustrating the issue, providing all infos to exclude testers faults.

[meanwhile]

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

 

 

I did.[give more details] Please see my previous comments in this thread: I´m doing slow movement, tracking works fine, etc. 

No, you didn't give more details. Not the specific ones asked for. You said that you were using "an sd card" but I think everyone already knew that. What sd card are using? Is it a U3 one? What brand and model?

...The evidence does seem to be that people have had this problem when storage media haven't quite been able to keep up and that for some reason this shows more in pans. Did you read the thread Robino provided the link to?

[PannySVHS]

I wrote SD card, panning speed, etc. are sorted out as faulty parameters due to fast card, slow panning speed, with and without IBIS still worse than Lumix G6, etc.

That makes encoder and other parameters left for consideration. I´ve read the linked thread. My SD card is a Samsung EVO UHS-I Class 10, model MB-SP32D.

With HD and 4K pans having the same jitter problem, it´s not a writing speed related issue.

Its write speed is at least 19 Megabytes/ 150 Mbits per second, so plenty for HD and enough for 100mbit which UHD barely reaches.

Jonpais has provided his first experience doing a well executed test. Thanks again, Jon! More GX and G85 users might chim in as well. cheers

 

[EyeSoul]

Yea I have always noticed this issue with my GX85.

[jonpais]

@PannySVHS I tried to keep my arms close to my body and turn from the waist like @mercer suggested, but I must say, I shake like a leaf,  it runs in the family I guess. That's one reason why I used to shoot so much slo-mo. It's also the reason I'm seriously considering buying yet a third slider, because without a motor, my shots all need warp stabilizer. Even if I could buy a motion control unit for my iFootage here, it would run over $1,000, whereas there are relatively inexpensive motorized sliders selling here for much less than that, and even the Shark Slider Mini package costs less I believe.. So the test turned out a little better than I thought it would, TBH. As far as the Nocticron goes, it's a strange story. I just walked into the camera  shop one day, when like magic, the salesman approaches me and asks if I'd like to buy the Leica for USD 1,200. If I hadn't gotten that lens, I wouldn't have hesitated to pay $350 for the Panasonic 42.5 f/1.7, which apparently is an outstanding lens. 

[Orangenz]

How are you viewing these files? While Jon's video is not terribly smooth, it has zero jitter. Can you take a file to another computer? (preferably swapping pc to mac or vice versa and swapping playback resolution and player). Also, try recording at 50p/60p in HD and then conform to half speed. Smooth playback means the original must be smooth too. Also, try play back on a TV with 100Hz+ refresh. 

[Grimor]

Leica 12-60 has a new firmware with improved stabilization and focus. (maybe less jitter?)

http://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/dsc/download/fts/index2.html

I can do slow pan test with G85 if needed.

[PannySVHS]

 

10 hours ago, Grimor said:

Leica 12-60 has a new firmware with improved stabilization and focus. (maybe less jitter?)

http://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/dsc/download/fts/index2.html

I can do slow pan test with G85 if needed.

 

 

Wow, this is awesome! EOSHD community supporting one another! Slow pan and quick one, one on fore,-middle- and one on background!

Now I am getting greedy. With IBIS, with DualIS, one without. Hot darn, Grimor, you must be very brave to offer this!:)

Anyhow, would be great as you like. Awesome. Thanks!

[Grimor]

On 7/8/2017 at 11:49 PM, PannySVHS said:

 

 

 

Wow, this is awesome! EOSHD community supporting one another! Slow pan and quick one, one on fore,-middle- and one on background!

Now I am getting greedy. With IBIS, with DualIS, one without. Hot darn, Grimor, you must be very brave to offer this!:)

Anyhow, would be great as you like. Awesome. Thanks!

Dirty and not very scientific test.

4k 24fps and 1/50ss. Lens is Leica 12-60mm. With and without Dual Ibis 2.(e-stabilization not used in this test)

Sandisk Extreme Pro 95MB/s.

Almost repeating same movement with the Bescor Pan/tilt head.

Jitter is very noticeable at longer focals lenght.

Now i think IBIS is really awesome with erractic movements, and little shakes (like handheld walking shoot) but not for slow and linear moves like pans.

Probably jitter when panning is due sensor moving in the same direction to the camera pan, trying to compensate, then can´t go further and came to the center, and then to the same direction again and back to the center again. several times per second, and making a worse image.

Hope it help.

[PannySVHS]

 

 

Oh wow, all questions answered, tremendeous job, as the current administration of the land of the great american indie and edgy filmers would say!

No fake news! Just awesome test and response. You, jonpais and the others did all handheld shooters an awesome favor and great insight.

Thank you very much, Grimor!

 

[no_connection]

On 2017-08-16 at 0:33 AM, Grimor said:

Dirty and not very scientific test.

4k 24fps and 1/50ss. Lens is Leica 12-60mm. With and without Dual Ibis 2.(e-stabilization not used in this test)

Sandisk Extreme Pro 95MB/s.

Almost repeating same movement with the Bescor Pan/tilt head.

Jitter is very noticeable at longer focals lenght.

Now i think IBIS is really awesome with erractic movements, and little shakes (like handheld walking shoot) but not for slow and linear moves like pans.

Probably jitter when panning is due sensor moving in the same direction to the camera pan, trying to compensate, then can´t go further and came to the center, and then to the same direction again and back to the center again. several times per second, and making a worse image.

Hope it help.

 

I am not sure what you are referring to as jitter.

I analyzed parts in the video where you see the shadow of several frames (think frame based motion blur) and found no evidence of any difference in frame timing/position. You can even see some parts where every frame lands exactly one half a fence rib apart making the pins "stand still". If ibis was indeed moving the ribs would not land in the same place every frame. Or if the frame timing was wrong.

Here is a quick and dirty "test" of the footage, so please excuse me if I got the problem in question wrong.
I attaches a screenshot of one part of it where you can see the edge of the ribs compared to previous frames and they show pretty much the same distance traveled between each frame.

All I can see is a strobing effect from having high contrast objects jumping from one place to another. And that is a real problem too, but it's not jitter.
Playing back low framerate content and having it look smooth is a whole chapter in itself. And so is capturing it. 180* shutter isn't a be all end all solution, it depends on the scene.

[no_connection]

Here is maybe a better view. You can see that over 8 frames there is little to no difference in distance between frames.

You can also see that the blur on the knob on the fence thingie is very charp, way less than 180* of movement you would expect from 1/50ss.

[Davey]

On 05/08/2017 at 5:45 PM, mercer said:

Also remember to use a strap, keep it taut with your elbows to your side and turn your waist not your arms. It's a good ab workout too. 

Tried to explain this to somebody until I was blue in the face. He didn't listen and cannot understand why his pans are struggling. He blames the camera. Tried to explain how to walk with the camera, smoothing out jitters by walking as if you have crapped yourself - didn't listen, bobbing footage, blames the camera.

Actually, he blames me because he tried to copy my style and bought the same camera as me thinking that results would be the same even if he did the opposite to what I advised regarding movement.

I despair.

[jonpais]

A tripod and a fluid head can work wonders.

[mercer]

44 minutes ago, Davey said:

Tried to explain this to somebody until I was blue in the face. He didn't listen and cannot understand why his pans are struggling. He blames the camera. Tried to explain how to walk with the camera, smoothing out jitters by walking as if you have crapped yourself - didn't listen, bobbing footage, blames the camera.

Actually, he blames me because he tried to copy my style and bought the same camera as me thinking that results would be the same even if he did the opposite to what I advised regarding movement.

I despair.

Here's my GX85 with the Rokinon 12mm cine lens using the twist method. The pan is at 0:21...

Obviously the wide angle helped and I may have used E-Stabilizer as well... I don't remember. 

The problem is that IBIS only does so much. There are tricks for lazy people like myself, but in the end a tripod will give better pans and a steadycam/gimbal will give better movement.

[BTM_Pix]

54 minutes ago, Davey said:

Tried to explain how to walk with the camera, smoothing out jitters by walking as if you have crapped yourself

When the time comes for someone to make an automated steadicam, my money is Honda dominating the market.

That robot of theirs always walks like its had an accident.

"Yeah, I'll be back to shoot the scene in a sec lads. Just got to change my undies..."

[Grimor]

1 hour ago, no_connection said:

Here is maybe a better view. You can see that over 8 frames there is little to no difference in distance between frames.

You can also see that the blur on the knob on the fence thingie is very charp, way less than 180* of movement you would expect from 1/50ss.

Well, don't know if it's jitter or it's other thing like strobbig like you said.

When i set the test, i thinked that 1/50ss was the proper for the motion blur with 24 fps.

And used a motorized pan/tilt head at his fast/slow speed to always repeat same movements.

I can repeat the test outside and with different configuration if needed.

[no_connection]

You could test down to 1/30 or so and see if it makes a difference. I'm not entirely sure that is really 1/50. Ill try and measure it.

*edit* it does indeed look like 1/50ss but due to the high contrast a lot of it is washed out leaving maybe a 1/100 edge or even less.

And it is in high contrast areas where it's worse to begin with. So it might need more motion blur to help.

I noticed that my video I made with the first settings you see in my first screenshot looked smoother than the original video, so it might need some blur to look ok at fast pans, which make sense if you think about it. At slower pans it might be too buttery instead.

[kidzrevil]

On 8/20/2017 at 0:35 PM, no_connection said:

Here is maybe a better view. You can see that over 8 frames there is little to no difference in distance between frames.

You can also see that the blur on the knob on the fence thingie is very charp, way less than 180* of movement you would expect from 1/50ss.

hmm this could very well be the noise reduction algorithm repeating frames and then the sharpening algorithm going crazy on the high contrast edges causing a jitter effect when panning.

 

The gh2 had a similar problem https://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/2848/gh2-in-24p-noticeable-strobe-effect-with-any-motion-in-frame/p1