Canon C200 or 1DX mkII for 4K 60fps

[Dave Maze]

The idea that I am considering one or the other is weird...it makes sense that I would go with a C200 as a no brainer selection for video...but the quality of the stills and the fact that 1DX II has 8bit 4:2:2 internally along with a better touch AF system as discussed by mr Philip Bloom:

There is just some sort of MOJO that the 4k Canon DSLR's put out. 

 

 

I just love the look and the idea of a smaller form factor camera....I have also gotten used to and quite fond of the 1.3x crop from my 1DC and a 1DX II would be a natural upgrade for me.

What are your thoughts? 

[gt3rs]

I have the 1Dx II and I love it. Great for action photo and also great for video and for me is very good to be able to do both with a single camera.

But as video camera there is really no contest at least on paper:

 

C200

+ NDs!!

+ RAWLight (at 60p no big difference in file size 1000 Mbits vs 800 Mbits 1Dx)

+ h264 150 Mbits for long recording

+ audio

+ no recording limit

+ mp4 proxy (can be used also as backup too)

+ DR in RAWLight

+ Log and lut monitoring

+ Viewfinder

+ integrated WiFi

+ zebra, waveforms, etc….

- 1.5 crop

- no photos

- a bit bigger

- DPAF not as good as the 1Dx II

- more expensive especially if buying a used 1Dx II

- For RAWLight better Computer needed as MJPEG

Same weight

Not sure about the 120 fps quality which is better and if the C200 can AF at 120fps

 

If you plan to keep the 1Dc I would not buy a 1Dx II but a C200. Anyway I would wait a bit to see how the C200 fares on the real world… now that the first units are delivered we should see more videos and experience sharing.

[Gregormannschaft]

1 hour ago, DaveAltizer said:

The idea that I am considering one or the other is weird...it makes sense that I would go with a C200 as a no brainer selection for video...but the quality of the stills and the fact that 1DX II has 8bit 4:2:2 internally along with a better touch AF system as discussed by mr Philip Bloom:

There is just some sort of MOJO that the 4k Canon DSLR's put out. 

 

 

I just love the look and the idea of a smaller form factor camera....I have also gotten used to and quite fond of the 1.3x crop from my 1DC and a 1DX II would be a natural upgrade for me.

What are your thoughts? 

Thoughts? Too much make up.

[Dave Maze]

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

I have the 1Dx II and I love it. Great for action photo and also great for video and for me is very good to be able to do both with a single camera.

But as video camera there is really no contest at least on paper:

 

C200

+ NDs!!

+ RAWLight (at 60p no big difference in file size 1000 Mbits vs 800 Mbits 1Dx)

+ h264 150 Mbits for long recording

+ audio

+ no recording limit

+ mp4 proxy (can be used also as backup too)

+ DR in RAWLight

+ Log and lut monitoring

+ Viewfinder

+ integrated WiFi

+ zebra, waveforms, etc….

- 1.5 crop

- no photos

- a bit bigger

- DPAF not as good as the 1Dx II

- more expensive especially if buying a used 1Dx II

- For RAWLight better Computer needed as MJPEG

Same weight

Not sure about the 120 fps quality which is better and if the C200 can AF at 120fps

 

If you plan to keep the 1Dc I would not buy a 1Dx II but a C200. Anyway I would wait a bit to see how the C200 fares on the real world… now that the first units are delivered we should see more videos and experience sharing.

Ya absolutely all valid points. The idea is for me to sell my 1DC to have the funds to get the upgrade. Ill wait it out, rent it, and see how I like it

[EthanAlexander]

FYI the firmware update for better internal codec will be 4:2:2 8 bit (and easier to edit than MJPEG). Have to wait until 2018, though!

[gt3rs]

9 hours ago, EthanAlexander said:

FYI the firmware update for better internal codec will be 4:2:2 8 bit (and easier to edit than MJPEG). Have to wait until 2018, though!

With a decent hw (4 core i7 notebook) MJPEG is no problem at all to edit. On my gaming notebook there is no difference in speed between mjpg and DNxHR in resolove at 4k 60p.

RAWlight needs more HW I guess especially over 30p... but I would need to test it again once I find a 4k 60p RAWlight file:

Is not yet sure if it will be 8 bit or 10bit.... a guy from Canon USA stated that it will be 8bit, a guy from Canon Japan stated that it will not be 8bit..(so 6bit:-) or 10bit).  

11 hours ago, DaveAltizer said:

Ya absolutely all valid points. The idea is for me to sell my 1DC to have the funds to get the upgrade. Ill wait it out, rent it, and see how I like it

First question to ask is what percentage of photo vs. video you do with your 1DC? In my case is 60% photos 40% video... best would be to have both the 1Dx II and add the C200 but it becomes expensive...

Rent is good idea looking forward to your opinion

[Arikhan]

@DaveAltizer

Never forget, it's baked in vs. RAW. If you need a maximum of maleability and a wide range of options to go (and better base for VFX, etc.) in post, I would always go for RAW. 

[Jimmy]

10 hours ago, EthanAlexander said:

FYI the firmware update for better internal codec will be 4:2:2 8 bit (and easier to edit than MJPEG). Have to wait until 2018, though!

There's nothing concrete from canon about bitrate.

[IronFilm]

Do you get a large chunk of your income from stills shooting? 
Then you need to at least own the likes of a Canon 5D mk3 / Nikon D750 / Nikon D500 / etc

However.... unless you are the rare 0.00000001% of pro sports photographers, do you do not NEED the 1D X mk2 for stills. 

So get a much cheaper DSLR for your stills on the side (or even skip it entirely and use your iPhone, if it is only for super casual personal use and you're very tight for money) and get an actual cinema camera instead (although I'm not a fan of the C200. Go for Panasonic EVA1 or Sony FS7 or URSA Mini Pro instead).

 

[DBounce]

I feel the c200 is a camera that could have been great, but was designed to fall short in some very important areas. The 1DXMk2 is an epic camera, and if you are doing limited CG, it's a great choice... This is especially true if you are focused mainly on stills. But if the focus is video only, there are better options. I would stay clear of the c200, unless you can handle the heaps of data. I will not recommend a camera I have not seen good amounts of footage and reviews from, so I cannot really recommend the Panasonic EVA1... but I would recommend waiting to see what it brings before parting with $6k+. If stealthily is part of the attraction, forget dedicated video cameras. While the 1DXMk2 does attract attention, it does not attract the kind that requires a permit, so that's a plus. The GH5 is pretty much invisible compared to the 1DXMk2. Zero questions... No "are you a professional" comments... nothing.

[gt3rs]

3 hours ago, DBounce said:

I feel the c200 is a camera that could have been great, but was designed to fall short in some very important areas. The 1DXMk2 is an epic camera, and if you are doing limited CG, it's a great choice... This is especially true if you are focused mainly on stills. But if the focus is video only, there are better options. I would stay clear of the c200, unless you can handle the heaps of data. I will not recommend a camera I have not seen good amounts of footage and reviews from, so I cannot really recommend the Panasonic EVA1... but I would recommend waiting to see what it brings before parting with $6k+. If stealthily is part of the attraction, forget dedicated video cameras. While the 1DXMk2 does attract attention, it does not attract the kind that requires a permit, so that's a plus. The GH5 is pretty much invisible compared to the 1DXMk2. Zero questions... No "are you a professional" comments... nothing.

Not sure where the C200 it fall short on important areas?

Dave is interested according to his question to 4k 60p and there the difference between 1Dx II and C200 is 20% so the cost in file size is well worth for RAW.
Worst case scenario after the firmware you get 4k RAWLight at 1 GBits, 4:2:2 8bit 300 Mbits, 4:2:0 150 Mbits and all up to 4k 60p not like the EVA1 that is only 4:2:0 at 60p. Best case you get 4:2:2 10 bits 400 MBits instead of the 8 bits. The DPAF could be better but is still the best on any dedicated video camera.

I agree that the 1DX does not look like a cinema camera so it is more discrete.

[mercer]

Dave has done some of the nicest pro work I've seen on this site and if you go back and watch his Vimeo history, even his earlier work was a step ahead, so I'm pretty sure he has heard of the GH5, EVA, Ursa, etc... so with the question at hand, which camera makes more sense... the 1DXii or the C200?

Now, I wish I could be more helpful as I haven't used either, but being a Canon shooter I have followed both cameras and I think it really comes down to two questions as both seem like excellent tools.

1. With the C200 are you okay with the media space needed, with both recording and storage to shoot and edit Raw? 

2. Do you prefer the DSLR form factor over the cinema camera form factor?

I, personally, wouldn't spend the money on a 1DXii when the C200 is lingering around for just a little more and shooting 4K Raw up to 60p. But I don't shoot any stills and love Raw. But with that comes extra costs and a bigger footprint. I guess it depends on the type of work you plan on using it for? And I guess the 1DXii is coming down in price a little, so you may catch a steal on the used market. Hmm... tough call. If only Canon would introduce a 1DC Mark ii.

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Not sure where the C200 it fall short on important areas?

C200 completely lacks an everyday middle ground codec. For many people this is NEEDED as it is 95% of their bread and butter jobs.

 

This is the key way Canon crippled the C200 vs C300 mk2

[gt3rs]

33 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

C200 completely lacks an everyday middle ground codec. For many people this is NEEDED as it is 95% of their bread and butter jobs.

 

This is the key way Canon crippled the C200 vs C300 mk2

Did you read my post? Do you know that Canon has announced a firmware? Do you know that your reccomended EVA1 also need a firmware update for the middle codec and that is only up to 30p, 60p will be 4:2:0 8bit LGOP only?

I agree that the firmware is not out yet for protecting the C300 II. 

[IronFilm]

EVA1 does 4K 24 10bit out of the box?

& I know about the C200 firmware update sometime next year. But by that time happens it could be a completely different camera market!

 

FS7 might be slashed in price.

FS5 mk2 might be out?

EVA1/LS300/etc could have got surprise firmware updates.

A cheap 5" 4K 60fps recorder monitor might be released.

Who knows what BMD might release. Or Kinefinity. Or someone else we have never even heard of yet.

[EthanAlexander]

11 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

EVA1 does 4K 24 10bit out of the box?

Yup.

[gt3rs]

6 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

EVA1 does 4K 24 10bit out of the box?

150 Mbits LGOP only at the moment, not really the perfect codec...

The title of the post is C200 or 1Dx II for 4k 60p ....on paper both ar better than EVA1 for the OP. Real life could be different

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, EthanAlexander said:

Yup.

Thought so. 

9 hours ago, gt3rs said:

150 Mbits LGOP only at the moment, not really the perfect codec...

Still a much better mid range codec option at launch than the C200.

[Dave Maze]

On 8/11/2017 at 1:49 AM, gt3rs said:

With a decent hw (4 core i7 notebook) MJPEG is no problem at all to edit. On my gaming notebook there is no difference in speed between mjpg and DNxHR in resolove at 4k 60p.

RAWlight needs more HW I guess especially over 30p... but I would need to test it again once I find a 4k 60p RAWlight file:

Is not yet sure if it will be 8 bit or 10bit.... a guy from Canon USA stated that it will be 8bit, a guy from Canon Japan stated that it will not be 8bit..(so 6bit:-) or 10bit).  

First question to ask is what percentage of photo vs. video you do with your 1DC? In my case is 60% photos 40% video... best would be to have both the 1Dx II and add the C200 but it becomes expensive...

Rent is good idea looking forward to your opinion

I need to work in resolve. I hear MJPEG runs well. I usually just immediately convert all my footage to 4K ProRes LT because my main work machine is the base model 13" MBP 2016. 

I do 5% photo and 95% video with my 1DC. I would miss having unlimited recording and the super 35 crop mode with the 1DX II but I've been shooting a lot of 60p recently and have been switching between my 1DC for real time and my 80D for 60fps using EOSHD Canon Log. I've been moderately impressed with the image quality on the 80D but every time I pick up the camera to do 60p... I think to myself....1DX II.... I'd only need one camera.....

On 8/11/2017 at 2:04 AM, Arikhan said:

@DaveAltizer

Never forget, it's baked in vs. RAW. If you need a maximum of maleability and a wide range of options to go (and better base for VFX, etc.) in post, I would always go for RAW. 

Absolutely. I'd use MP4 80% of the time more than likely. I literally used RAW with my blackmagics like two or three times for the two years I owned them. 

On 8/11/2017 at 7:11 AM, IronFilm said:

Do you get a large chunk of your income from stills shooting? 
Then you need to at least own the likes of a Canon 5D mk3 / Nikon D750 / Nikon D500 / etc

However.... unless you are the rare 0.00000001% of pro sports photographers, do you do not NEED the 1D X mk2 for stills. 

So get a much cheaper DSLR for your stills on the side (or even skip it entirely and use your iPhone, if it is only for super casual personal use and you're very tight for money) and get an actual cinema camera instead (although I'm not a fan of the C200. Go for Panasonic EVA1 or Sony FS7 or URSA Mini Pro instead).

 

Great point. I always justify it by saying I need stills but I never use it for stills. I don't even like taking stills. I'm thinking of just keeping my 80D and getting the C200B (I have a zacuto gratical and I want a smaller C200 for gimbal work)

On 8/11/2017 at 8:24 AM, DBounce said:

I feel the c200 is a camera that could have been great, but was designed to fall short in some very important areas. The 1DXMk2 is an epic camera, and if you are doing limited CG, it's a great choice... This is especially true if you are focused mainly on stills. But if the focus is video only, there are better options. I would stay clear of the c200, unless you can handle the heaps of data. I will not recommend a camera I have not seen good amounts of footage and reviews from, so I cannot really recommend the Panasonic EVA1... but I would recommend waiting to see what it brings before parting with $6k+. If stealthily is part of the attraction, forget dedicated video cameras. While the 1DXMk2 does attract attention, it does not attract the kind that requires a permit, so that's a plus. The GH5 is pretty much invisible compared to the 1DXMk2. Zero questions... No "are you a professional" comments... nothing.

Why can't Canon make a mirrorless camera the size of a GH5 that was competitive in that area...!!!!

On 8/11/2017 at 11:49 AM, mercer said:

Dave has done some of the nicest pro work I've seen on this site and if you go back and watch his Vimeo history, even his earlier work was a step ahead, so I'm pretty sure he has heard of the GH5, EVA, Ursa, etc... so with the question at hand, which camera makes more sense... the 1DXii or the C200?

Now, I wish I could be more helpful as I haven't used either, but being a Canon shooter I have followed both cameras and I think it really comes down to two questions as both seem like excellent tools.

1. With the C200 are you okay with the media space needed, with both recording and storage to shoot and edit Raw? 

2. Do you prefer the DSLR form factor over the cinema camera form factor?

I, personally, wouldn't spend the money on a 1DXii when the C200 is lingering around for just a little more and shooting 4K Raw up to 60p. But I don't shoot any stills and love Raw. But with that comes extra costs and a bigger footprint. I guess it depends on the type of work you plan on using it for? And I guess the 1DXii is coming down in price a little, so you may catch a steal on the used market. Hmm... tough call. If only Canon would introduce a 1DC Mark ii.

Mercer... wow thanks man. Flattered. 

1. I feel dumb buying a C200 cause I feel like I'd use the .mp4 80% of the time. I feel like the expense it takes to have the option of Raw would be a waste because all I truly want is a canon camera that does 60fps at 4K. That's why I keep going back and forth... because in a way for what I'm planning on using it for, the 1DX II has better 60fps because of the larger sensor and the higher bit rate (considering that I will mainly shoot MP4 and not raw) 

I'm already used to the MJPEG workflow because of my 1DC and I have a bunch of fast CF cards that will record 24p 4k (I'll have to buy some CFAST for 60fps 4k)

2. i prefer the dslr form factor because I love the modularity. However... the C200 is extremely modular and i would buy the C200B which is even smaller.

I didn't realize that raw 60fps 4k on C200 was only 20% larger than 1DX II. Makes it a more inticing option. Plus, if FCPX natively supports the Canon raw format in a similar to R3D format I would be super intrigued. 

A proper 1DC mkii would give me no question. I would buy that in a heartbeat. My 1DC has been the most enjoyable and magical camera I have ever owned and I really don't want to give it up :P

[Dave Maze]

On 8/11/2017 at 4:48 PM, IronFilm said:

C200 completely lacks an everyday middle ground codec. For many people this is NEEDED as it is 95% of their bread and butter jobs.

 

This is the key way Canon crippled the C200 vs C300 mk2

True... however an external recorder will give you that...but it's a messy option of course and internal would be best of course. 

On 8/11/2017 at 5:51 PM, IronFilm said:

EVA1 does 4K 24 10bit out of the box?

& I know about the C200 firmware update sometime next year. But by that time happens it could be a completely different camera market!

 

FS7 might be slashed in price.

FS5 mk2 might be out?

EVA1/LS300/etc could have got surprise firmware updates.

A cheap 5" 4K 60fps recorder monitor might be released.

Who knows what BMD might release. Or Kinefinity. Or someone else we have never even heard of yet.

This is a good point, and one that would require a new thread... but a FS5 mkii that does 4k 60fps, that has a touch screen with the a6500 AF would have me interested for sure. 

Interesting factoid... according to B&H the 1DX II is heavier than the C200 is!