Gear is for art. Art are politics

[Nikkor]

4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

LOL Right @Andrew Reid, give Ed the power and end of story. 

After all that's what liberals want, power. Social Justice is just an excuse, White Privilege is the new Original Sin. The Ed Davids are the new Priests, they want power and Privilege in exchange of nothing. Social justice is never going to come through people like Ed.

[Neumann Films]

Yeah, rewarding Ed is a bit of a turn off here, in my opinion.  I'm sure he's a good guy in real life but the limited experience I have with him online has been, annoying at best.  If he's a freaking mod...I'm out. Love ya, Andrew, but...I would probably just go back to reading your articles and steering clear of the one forum I come to anymore.

Just my opinion, take it how you will.

 

[Ed_David]

31 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

Yeah, rewarding Ed is a bit of a turn off here, in my opinion.  I'm sure he's a good guy in real life but the limited experience I have with him online has been, annoying at best.  If he's a freaking mod...I'm out. Love ya, Andrew, but...I would probably just go back to reading your articles and steering clear of the one forum I come to anymore.

Just my opinion, take it how you will.

 

I am with Neumann.

If Ed becomes a mod, I am out as well.

I like the articles here and the people, but he is self-righteous, egotistical, and annonying and whining.  I practically hear him whining whenever he types.

I don't know him personally either, but I'm sure he's a good dude, but no way, I would be gone.

I think the site was better when he wasn't here.

He can take his holier-than-thou attitude somewhere else.  

Last post.  Peace.

[Neumann Films]

22 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

I am with Neumann.

If Ed becomes a mod, I am out as well.

I like the articles here and the people, but he is self-righteous, egotistical, and annonying and whining.  I practically hear him whining whenever he types.

I don't know him personally either, but I'm sure he's a good dude, but no way, I would be gone.

I think the site was better when he wasn't here.

He can take his holier-than-thou attitude somewhere else.  

Last post.  Peace.

Need anyone say more?

[Ed_David]

3 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

Need anyone say more?

No sir!

 

[squig]

If this lynch mob is a microcosm of the world, we're all going to fucking die!

[silvertonesx24]

2 hours ago, Nikkor said:

After all that's what liberals want, power. Social Justice is just an excuse, White Privilege is the new Original Sin. The Ed Davids are the new Priests, they want power and Privilege in exchange of nothing. Social justice is never going to come through people like Ed.

That's really well said. It's the new evangelical. People who proselytize, lead with vague statements presented as absolute truths, pass sweeping judgements on others, make doomsday predictions, use words like 'denier', 'justice', 'retribution', 'reparations', any opposition is doubleplusungood and must be shut down.

They hijacked the right in America fifty years ago and they are only recently starting to lose influence there. Now the left is picking them up as a different crowd.

[Don Kotlos]

2 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

Yeah, rewarding Ed is a bit of a turn off here, in my opinion.  I'm sure he's a good guy in real life but the limited experience I have with him online has been, annoying at best.  If he's a freaking mod...I'm out. Love ya, Andrew, but...I would probably just go back to reading your articles and steering clear of the one forum I come to anymore.

I am not sure if your response is meant to be sarcastic, but if not I am really puzzled by it. 

Are you in favor of a mod that deletes posts, locks threads, promotes or even posts personal insults and pushes people to leave the forum? But a mod with responses that in your limited experience you find annoying is what bothers you most, or enough to drive you away? 

What am I missing here? 

[Neumann Films]

1 hour ago, Don Kotlos said:

I am not sure if your response is meant to be sarcastic, but if not I am really puzzled by it. 

Are you in favor of a mod that deletes posts, locks threads, promotes or even posts personal insults and pushes people to leave the forum? But a mod with responses that in your limited experience you find annoying is what bothers you most, or enough to drive you away? 

What am I missing here? 

Well, for starters you seem to be missing the post (a few) above yours, where Ed uploaded a pic of Jon and mocked it?  You could start there.

I have never had an issue with Jon myself, so I can't really offer any thoughts on that matter.  Seems like it's something personal between Ed and Jon.  I'm in favor of this forum as is...hence, why I come here.  Not too crazy of a notion (to me at least).

The few experiences I have had with Ed (this being one of them) have been enough for me to have an opinion on HIM becoming a mod.  

So that's pretty much it.  I base my opinion on my personal experiences and nothing more.  Not hearsay, not rumor, not even my own assumptions.  Outside of that, I don't have enough information to make any more decisions than that.

Simple, simple, simple.

Not one ounce of sarcasm.  I don't like Ed's online persona, in its current undeveloped state.  My keyboard, my choice to come to a forum or not.

Simplicity.

I will say, in defense of Ed...I'm not assuming anything about him personally.  I do truly believe that people can and ARE much different online.  I know first hand how easy it is to piss people off even when you weren't intending to.  To have any "real" discussions, it's very difficult to emote and express with as much efficiency as you can in real life.

That's why most people are generally a bit nicer in real life.  You miss subtle cues online.  Facial gestures, vocal tones...all of those things make a difference when you're discussing important topics.  Online, a lack of a "smiley face", or not prefacing something with "in my opinion" can make all of the difference.

I have had to learn this lesson myself, over time.  We are of the age that we didn't grow up online or in forums, so there's a learning curve for everyone born before...1990 or so.  

I'm also not perfect in this regard.  I probably could have formed my ideas and thoughts in this very forum more eloquently and efficiently...but, you live and you learn.

Online, Ed SEEMS to be hard headed and unable to see anyone's view that doesn't line up with his.  In my opinion, bad choice for a mod.  Again, just based on his ONLINE persona.  Which is usually quite different from the person themselves.

Ed, I apologize if it came off like I was critiquing you as a person.  That wasn't my intent...

These conversations are so tough online.  It would be resolved in 10 minutes in real life.

[Andrew Reid]

I am a bit disappointed because this thread has turned into an Ed vs everyone else situation, and yes some of it is his fault, but c'mon...

http://www.eddaviddp.com

Some superb work on here.

And he has been using this forum for a very long time.

I will miss him if he chooses to leave permanently.

So whatever differences you guys forming a mob may have with him, this isn't the place to get personal and hound someone out.

It was poor form from Ed, but there's no need to force a guy to back out of the forum permanently and completely overlook what he shoots and what he contributes.

[Neumann Films]

I think I gave him a fair opinion.  His online persona is hard to get along with.  Find me five people that disagree with that. Hell, Ed should have trouble disagreeing with that. Not saying I'm a walk in the park either but...I'm not volunteering to become a mod and starting threads that are veiled personal attacks against other mods.

Then the whole victim routine.  Ugh. Pass.

Hard pass. 

Unlike Ed...this WILL be my last post in this thread.  Too much time wasted on lost causes.

Over and out.

 

[Andrew Reid]

9 hours ago, Emanuel said:

LOL Right @Andrew Reid, give Ed the power and end of story. Well BTW, feel free to elect me so, as well. I am all peace and love, good contributor y'know, go figure, I don't mind to be mod too : ) Not fair for Jon's hard work though :-)

This is the kind of extreme reaction that doesn't help the situation, it just fans the flames.

I respect Jon's effort here, he's been a regular poster for nearly as long as I have, he has helped for countless days keep the forum in good shape, approve comments from new users, keep tabs on troublesome ones and keep away the spambots. He has posted his creative stuff, tests, Panasonic stuff especially, and there is no need for me to question his role at all.

Don't forget there are 5 mods in total, it's not just Jon with all the power...

jgharding,andylee,mtheory and me

Maybe I should just remove the role of mod entirely and do it all myself if it is going to cause trouble... Either that, or people need to chill the fuck out.

5 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

I think I gave him a fair opinion.  His online persona is hard to get along with.  Find me five people that disagree with that. Hell, Ed should have trouble disagreeing with that. Not saying I'm a walk in the park either but...I'm not volunteering to become a mod and starting threads that are veiled personal attacks against other mods.

Then the whole victim routine.  Ugh. Pass.

Hard pass. 

Unlike Ed...this WILL be my last post in this thread.  Too much time wasted on lost causes.

Over and out.

 

Sure, I agree Ed has had his moments of poor form, contrary opinions, argumentative positions, politics we may not agree with, and so on.

It would be a boring forum if we all nodded in agreement with one another though! So by all means, we should argue, we should have it out on one-another, we should mow down bad ideas and criticise, but when all the competitive sport is said and done there should be some time left for the pub.

BTW

Ed has completely edited the OP

Read it again, and it makes more sense.

I think we are free to discuss B&H's ethical behaviour and lawsuits.

As long as it is based on the facts and both sides of the story are heard and we don't go into vitriolic territory.

[Ed_David]

43 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

41 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

This is the kind of extreme reaction that doesn't help the situation, it just fans the flames.

I respect Jon's effort here, he's been a regular poster for nearly as long as I have, he has helped for countless days keep the forum in good shape, approve comments from new users, keep tabs on troublesome ones and keep away the spambots. He has posted his creative stuff, tests, Panasonic stuff especially, and there is no need for me to question his role at all.

Don't forget there are 5 mods in total, it's not just Jon with all the power...

jgharding,andylee,mtheory and me

Maybe I should just remove the role of mod entirely and do it all myself if it is going to cause trouble... Either that, or people need to chill the fuck out.

Sure, I agree Ed has had his moments of poor form, contrary opinions, argumentative positions, politics we may not agree with, and so on.

It would be a boring forum if we all nodded in agreement with one another though! So by all means, we should argue, we should have it out on one-another, we should mow down bad ideas and criticise, but when all the competitive sport is said and done there should be some time left for the pub.

BTW

Ed has completely edited the OP

Read it again, and it makes more sense.

I think we are free to discuss B&H's ethical behaviour and lawsuits.

As long as it is based on the facts and both sides of the story are heard and we don't go into vitriolic territory.

 

thanks for this Andrew.  You are always a good, rationale voice.

[jcs]

2 hours ago, squig said:

If this lynch mob is a microcosm of the world, we're all going to fucking die!

This is exactly what happens in the real world. This thread is fundamentally about control. In the business world, the manager(s) lay down the law for what is acceptable behavior. Folks who never learned how to behave politely are given a chance with warnings. If they don't learn they are fired. Managers and leaders in general must lead by example. If managers can't manage a team in harmony, they are fired. They too are given warnings/encouragement before being let go.

In the world of wild dogs and wolves, the alpha male leads the pack. He is dominant on the one hand to maintain order, and at the same time able to provide for the pack. If he is either weak or fails to provide, the wolves will either find another strong leader or attack and kill the weak leader. This is also known as the Law of the Jungle.

If you watch any series/movies about ancient times, such as e.g. Game of Thrones, Gladiator, The 300, The Last Samurai, you'll see all the complexities of leading, following, and surviving. Metaphors and parables for what is still happening today.

In a quest for equality and an alternative to the Law of the Jungle, we've tried to make things more fair with the Rule of Law, jury by peers, etc. to settle disputes. This requires a fair and balanced legal system as well as law enforcement which is also kind and fair. The system has a fundamental flaw, in that it is adversarial. It can become a game where opposing sides try to out lie the other: all about competition and winning. To improve the system, those who use deception must be sanctioned and/or barred from practice (law enforcement, lawyers, and judges). Empathetic behavior should also carry a reward.

Is this forum running on the Rule of the Jungle or the Rule of Law?

The algorithm is simple: warn folks who are behaving unprofessionally and/or divisive, privately. If that doesn't work warn them publicly (without pointing out they were already warned privately). If that doesn't work ban or fire them. This applies to everyone, members and moderators.

Have empathy for everyone, understanding that there is a major psychological war going on, and many people don't even know they have been programmed. Much of our behavior is unconscious, and many people aren't even aware of what they are doing. When challenged about their behavior, they are still unaware of why they are doing it, and a clever part of the mind programming they have been subject to starts up a powerful ego defense program. We've all seen this behavior with the hordes of social justice warriors (SJWs, doesn't matter which 'side'). If we're to heal the world, we must first educate everyone about what is going on, then work on healing the programmed SJW's (not intended to be a derogatory label). This is similar to dealing with Narcissist Personality Disorder (NPD). This label should not be used as a weapon against anyone.

This forum also features an "ignore user" option: ignoring narcissistic behavior is also an effective feedback tool for unkind behavior for regular users (mods would still warn privately).

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

This is the kind of extreme reaction that doesn't help the situation, it just fans the flames.

I respect Jon's effort here, he's been a regular poster for nearly as long as I have, he has helped for countless days keep the forum in good shape, approve comments from new users, keep tabs on troublesome ones and keep away the spambots. He has posted his creative stuff, tests, Panasonic stuff especially, and there is no need for me to question his role at all.

Don't forget there are 5 mods in total, it's not just Jon with all the power...

jgharding,andylee,mtheory and me

Maybe I should just remove the role of mod entirely and do it all myself if it is going to cause trouble... Either that, or people need to chill the fuck out.

Sure, I agree Ed has had his moments of poor form, contrary opinions, argumentative positions, politics we may not agree with, and so on.

It would be a boring forum if we all nodded in agreement with one another though! So by all means, we should argue, we should have it out on one-another, we should mow down bad ideas and criticise, but when all the competitive sport is said and done there should be some time left for the pub.

BTW

Ed has completely edited the OP

Read it again, and it makes more sense.

I think we are free to discuss B&H's ethical behaviour and lawsuits.

As long as it is based on the facts and both sides of the story are heard and we don't go into vitriolic territory.

I understand your disappointment but maybe you had misunderstood me or you had lost my previous posting here, I guess mate.

To my view, all this is nonsense. Jon is cool. Ed is cool. People only have different personalities, only that. What's new to see here?

I agree with you anyway... people need to chill out in fact. Otherwise, perhaps you need to open more mod candidacies, I bet. The forum has grown up since those days you were a dvxuser poster. And as you reasonably posted before, harmony, balance is a good way to stand the thing.

:-)

 

50 minutes ago, jcs said:

This thread is fundamentally about control.

Exactly.

8 hours ago, Axel said:

I wasn't aware of having been insulted. Must be because English isn't my native language. Many of the niceties are lost.

Well said, Axel. The problem stands when people tend to see their own side as the right one... Or the other side is fully wrong. *sigh*

As Anthony wisely posted, "lynch mob is a microcosm of the world"... The whole world indeed ; ) unfortunately.

[Ed_David]

2 hours ago, Don Kotlos said:

I am not sure if your response is meant to be sarcastic, but if not I am really puzzled by it. 

Are you in favor of a mod that deletes posts, locks threads, promotes or even posts personal insults and pushes people to leave the forum? But a mod with responses that in your limited experience you find annoying is what bothers you most, or enough to drive you away? 

What am I missing here? 

I think @Andrew Reid the reason I am in a huff is that a moderator's job is to keep the peace, not do as Don said - "deletes posts, locks threads, promotes or even posts personal insults and pushes people to leave the forum."

That's not good for this place.

[Emanuel]

2 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

These conversations are so tough online.  It would be resolved in 10 minutes in real life.

Reason why rule #1: never do online the stuff you are unable to perform in the rest of the world because digital is part within.

So, ad hominem attacks should have no place on both sides of same coin. Nor confrontational vibe is welcome especially when you wouldn't repeat it if/when face to face.

 

The world is not perfect either. Apology is part of our ecosystem though.

[Ed_David]

34 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Reason why rule #1: never do online the stuff you are unable to perform in the rest of the world because digital is part within.

So, ad hominem attacks should have no place on both sides of same coin. Nor confrontational vibe is welcome especially when you wouldn't repeat it if/when face to face.

 

The world is not perfect either. Apology is part of our ecosystem though.

I have had some really serious, intense arguments in the real world as well.  Sometimes even more shocking and intense since eye contact becomes involved and body language.  

Online stuff is definitely tough cause you can't see how your words affect the other person, but yea, arguments in general are difficult.  

[jcs]

Perhaps all of us at some time in our lives exhibit traits of NPD. Ideally we become aware of them, so we don't exhibit them, in order to get along better with others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder:

Quote

People with narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by their persistent grandiosity, excessive need for admiration, and a disdain and lack of empathy for others.[7][8] These individuals often display arrogance, a sense of superiority, and power-seeking behaviors.[9] Narcissistic personality disorder is different from having a strong sense of self-confidence; people with NPD typically value themselves over others to the extent that they disregard the feelings and wishes of others and expect to be treated as superior regardless of their actual status or achievements.[7][10] In addition, people with NPD may exhibit fragile egos, an inability to tolerate criticism, and a tendency to belittle others in an attempt to validate their own superiority.[10]

According to the DSM-5, individuals with NPD have most or all of the following symptoms, typically without commensurate qualities or accomplishments:[7][10]

• Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from others
• Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc.
• Self-perception of being unique, superior and associated with high-status people and institutions
• Needing constant admiration from others
• Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others
• Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain
• Unwilling to empathize with others' feelings, wishes, or needs
• Intensely envious of others and the belief that others are equally envious of them
• Pompous and arrogant demeanor

It's very important not to label anyone as NPD, narcissist, or exhibiting narcissistic behavior. The act of labeling will trigger their ego and result in reciprocal escalating attacks. Best to kindly ask them to stop the unkind behavior itself, and if they don't respond politely, this is where moderators traditionally step in and perform private warnings, editing or deleting posts (very tricky and must be done carefully), and finally banning users. This is especially challenging as one suffering from NPD traits can go into a rage and 'stop at nothing' until they feel they have been validated.

In summary, we do our best to treat everyone with kindness, even people suffering from NPD traits, however it must also be made clear that persistent unkind behavior is not permitted, and there are consequences for their actions.

Years ago in a corporate gig, someone found out I had negotiated a better deal than they had (pay and hours). They exhibited NPD traits, and even went on a campaign to get me fired. I was always kind and professional to them, however I did sternly ask them to stop trying to get me fired. A few years later this same person recommended me to a high level management position at Microsoft. So no matter how bad the situation might seem at the time, following the right path of kindness is worth it. And again, kindness is not weakness.

[Emanuel]

26 minutes ago, jcs said:

Perhaps all of us at some time in our lives exhibit traits of NPD. Ideally we become aware of them, so we don't exhibit them, in order to get along better with others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder:

It's very important not to label anyone as NPD, narcissist, or exhibiting narcissistic behavior. The act of labeling will trigger their ego and result in reciprocal escalating attacks. Best to kindly ask them to stop the unkind behavior itself, and if they don't respond politely, this is where moderators traditionally step in and perform private warnings, editing or deleting posts (very tricky and must be done carefully), and finally banning users. This is especially challenging as one suffering from NPD traits can go into a rage and 'stop at nothing' until they feel they have been validated.

In summary, we do our best to treat everyone with kindness, even people suffering from NPD traits, however it must also be made clear that persistent unkind behavior is not permitted, and there are consequences for their actions.

Years ago in a corporate gig, someone found out I had negotiated a better deal than they had (pay and hours). They exhibited NPD traits, and even went on a campaign to get me fired. I was always kind and professional to them, however I did sternly ask them to stop trying to get me fired. A few years later this same person recommended me to a high level management position at Microsoft. So no matter how bad the situation might seem at the time, following the right path of kindness is worth it. And again, kindness is not weakness.

: D Funny post. BTW put me out of there... LOL ;-)