Advice for architectural shots

[Marc T]

Hello, 

this is my first post here at EOSHD. I have been reading Andrew's post for many years and I can't think about a better place to find answers to my doubts.

I am an architectural photographer (www.fragments.cat) and I am going to expand activity to video. I have been using the Canon XC10 for year to learn to shoot and be prepared for the next step.

What I have: Canon TS lenses, 17, 24, and 45. Canon 24-105 and 70-200. 5dMkii.

What I need: a video camera compatible with my FF lenses, with a good dynamic range, low moiré and pleasant look when making movements.

I will mostly shoot steady or with a slider.

I have read about GH5 and Metabones adapters, Sony's and Canon's solutions, but the most information I get the most confused I am. 
 

Please, could someone shine some light?

[jonpais]

Hi, Marc, and welcome to the forum. I don't have an answer to your question, but I'm curious - have you ever used tilt-shift lenses?

[Nikkor]

7 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Hi, Marc, and welcome to the forum. I don't have an answer to your question, but I'm curious - have you ever used tilt-shift lenses?

He owns them.

A fun thing to do would be installing magiclantern on your canon and shooting some raw video, this will enable you to treat your videos with the same adjustments and programs (Adobe Camera raw).

If you enjoy the results and prefer them to 4K you coul try the 5D mkiii which doesn't have the moire from the ii.

If not you will probably want to look into the Sony A7r II

 

[jonpais]

6 minutes ago, Nikkor said:

He owns them.

A fun thing to do would be installing magiclantern on your canon and shooting some raw video, this will enable you to treat your videos with the same adjustments and programs (Adobe Camera raw).

If you enjoy the results and prefer them to 4K you coul try the 5D mkiii which doesn't have the moire from the ii.

If not you will probably want to look into the Sony A7r II

 

Thanks, Nikkor. My bad! ha

[hyalinejim]

Agreed. Magic Lantern RAW on 5D3 is a great option as you'll need a full frame camera to take maximum advantage of your shift lenses.

I have the Canon 24 and a Zuiko 35. I've got to say that if you're fully vertically shifted at 24 and you pan the camera you will really notice wide angle distortion that you might get away with in a photo. A slide would be ok as the background doesn't move much. 

Now, maximum resolution in 5D3 ML full frame is 1920 x 1080. So if you need high res, do think about a GH5 with a speedbooster XL, in which case your 17 will be more like a 21, etc. 

But remember that video is nearly always landscape orientation. So you might still need that 17 to be on a full frame to get in the tops of buildings that are high/close.

Perhaps install Magic Lantern on your 5D2 and play with different crop factors, checking how they affect your lenses.

[Nikkor]

Max res on the 5D mkiii ML raw was 1920x1200 the last time I checked, 3:2 instead of 16:9

[HockeyFan12]

I've never been a fan of tilt/shift lenses for video. Certainly they're useful for trick photography like in the Social Network (though that was done in post) or as a more elegant solution than a split diopter, but unlike hyalinejim I don't find them useful for video work.

It's up to you to decide how useful you find them, of course.

When I shot with a view camera or tilt shift lens I would use scheimpflug to get deep focus and use rise and shift to eliminate perspective distortion to make the composition more painterly and eliminate converging lines. But with video the camera inhabits the space and I like to take advantage of that when defining a space, so I emphasize in video what I would have intentionally avoided when shooting stills of architecture. I find very wide angle lenses useful still but I try to compose in depth (foreground, background, subject) by putting objects near the lens that I would normally try to keep away from it in stills and by using camera motion, usually dolly or slider moves, that create the maximum amount of parallax. 

When photographing moving people or objects, I try to enhance this by moving the camera in the opposite direction from the subject. 

I can't think of anyone who shoots spaces as well as Michael Bay does. The techniques in this video (the brief montage around 2:50 but throughout) are at odds with traditional architectural photography, but when used more conservatively I think they can allow you to capture depth in a way that defines the space uniquely well:

His use of long lenses and almost orthographic projection is a bit less useful for architectural work but equally stunning. 

I hear good things about the A7RII and Canon adapters if you can afford it. I don't like Magic Lantern for professional use, so if I were you I'd install it on your 5D MK II before buying a 5D MK III specifically for using raw video. I do think it looks nice. But it's so slow and sometimes unreliable. I would try it out first before investing more in that ecosystem.

With a GH5 those tilt/shift lenses won't be wide enough imo. Maybe with the XL speed booster, but I would still take a full frame camera over the GH5 if possible.

[maxotics]

I've used the Canon 24 TS on an Sony A7 but ran into glare issues because, as you know, the image plane is shifted off the sensor and it hits the surrounding area (which would would be an adapter on a Sony camera) and reflects back.  For various reasons, I'd stick with Canon if I were you.

As others have pointed out, the video RAW you can get from the 5DIII is seriously nice.  That's probably what I'd do, upgrade to that camera (not the IV).  Then learn Magic Lantern.  You could also get a used 7D I and run ML on it too.  ML will also allow you to higher res time-lapse, or low FPS video shooting.  The ML forum is a quite the adventure, but I feel you'll find some interesting stuff that will apply to what you're doing.  So worth the effort!

You could do some really cool timelapse videos with those TS lenses!  As you know, it's easy enough to straighten in photoshop when you have pixels to burn.  But you don't have those pixels to burn in video.   

 

[TrueBlue]

High DR and a distortion free wide angle lens are essential. Architectural work will be locked off on tripod or slider so ibis not as important. Best architectural works I have seen are all shot on RED, where the DR really shows up and makes an enormous difference especially on interiors. If more budget, I would look at something like an a6500 with slog and Samyang 12mm f/2.0. NX1 and Samyang 12mm is a nice combo as well if you stick with mostly exteriors. 

If you really want to get creative, quicklapse using a slider and camera with fully electronic shutter. Surprised I haven't seen the below technique repeated, quality is still the best I've seen across multiple techniques and formats. 

 

[noone]

I use the 17 and previously used the 24 ii on an A7s and on a (sold) A7.

I actually prefer them on Sony mirrorless FF as they are easier to use (I use them for live music full band shots as well as other more usual subjects).

I use the 17 f4 L walk around at night, something I would never attempt to do with any current Canon.

For video, I have used the 17 for a really low light night time light festival as well as for some live music videos.

 

[Shirozina]

I use 17,24 and 50 shift lenses on Sony A7r,A7r2,A7s as an architectural photographer without an problems and have shot video with them as well. The latest Metabones adaptors are flocked lined inside so no glare issues. Full time live view makes using these lenses very easy and better than on canon bodies + you get much better DR. It's a 'no - brainer' really! I'd avoid speedboosters though as the edge resolution can fall off quite dramatically which for architectural work is quite an important requirement.

[IronFilm]

https://fstoppers.com/product/mike-kelleys-where-art-meets-architecture-1

I'm guessing if you do photography you have already seen this series? (there is also #2 & #3)

There is a lot you can learn there! Of which you can transfer some of that knowledge over to video too.

As for cameras, Panasonic GH5 / G80 / Sony a7Rmk2 / a7Smk2 / a6500 / BMPCC / BMMCC are your top seven choices to consider. Unless you have the budget to go for the likes of a Sony FS7mk2 etc

Sticking with your current 5Dmk3 and shooting ML raw is a tempting option to consider as well, and best thing about that? It is FREE!! (aside from perhaps buying more/new cards)

[Shirozina]

If the OP is going to use shift lenses effectively then they are not much use on small sensors as the shift lenses they loose their coverage. Full frame is the ideal solution, APS-C usable (17mm shift gives you 24mm equivalent. FOV) . The A7sII or 5DII/II with ML. A7rII can be used full frame for video but Moire can be a problem which will is an important consideration for architecture so think carefully about that if you go the ML route . They A7r2 gets you very good 4k in APS-C mode and you get a full frame 42mp camera for your stills as to replace your 5D2 - it's the obvious choice to me...........

[Marc T]

Hello, 

many thanks to everyone. I thought I was going to receive the reply notifications in my mail inbox and was waiting for them. But today I've seen your answers when I came back to the forum. Sorry for the delay!

On 1/9/2017 at 11:09 AM, Nikkor said:

A fun thing to do would be installing magiclantern on your canon and shooting some raw video, this will enable you to treat your videos with the same adjustments and programs (Adobe Camera raw).

If you enjoy the results and prefer them to 4K you coul try the 5D mkiii which doesn't have the moire from the ii.

On 1/9/2017 at 5:41 PM, hyalinejim said:

Agreed. Magic Lantern RAW on 5D3 is a great option as you'll need a full frame camera to take maximum advantage of your shift lenses.

On 1/9/2017 at 8:40 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

I hear good things about the A7RII and Canon adapters if you can afford it. I don't like Magic Lantern for professional use, so if I were you I'd install it on your 5D MK II before buying a 5D MK III specifically for using raw video. I do think it looks nice. But it's so slow and sometimes unreliable. I would try it out first before investing more in that ecosystem.

On 1/9/2017 at 10:18 PM, maxotics said:

As others have pointed out, the video RAW you can get from the 5DIII is seriously nice.  That's probably what I'd do, upgrade to that camera (not the IV).  Then learn Magic Lantern....

On 3/9/2017 at 8:05 AM, IronFilm said:

Sticking with your current 5Dmk3 and shooting ML raw is a tempting option to consider as well, and best thing about that? It is FREE!! (aside from perhaps buying more/new cards

Nikkor, Hyalinejim, HockeyFan12, Maxotics and IronFilm... your recomendation of ML is something to consider, but I am scared about developing times. My clients are architects, builders and business owners whom I am trying to persuade to spend some money in video marketing about their works or spaces. It is going to be really low cost, but I hope to compensate it with my architect viewpoint and photography background. I can't make my current workflow any longer if I want it to stay profitable. Nowadays I feel comfortable whith the footage the XC10 gives me and the time it takes from there to the finished video. Maybe (or most likely) I am missing something to properly consider ML workflow equivalent to the workflow I am doing now... ?

On the other hand, ML is only 2K in 5D3 in FF, and 4K in 2.25x crop. So here it behaves like any other cropped sensor. I expect to use 4k to move and zoom around the footage because 2K is still my delivery format. Limiting factor there...

 

On 1/9/2017 at 8:40 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

I can't think of anyone who shoots spaces as well as Michael Bay does. The techniques in this video (the brief montage around 2:50 but throughout)

Thank you, inspiring!

On 1/9/2017 at 8:40 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

With a GH5 those tilt/shift lenses won't be wide enough imo. Maybe with the XL speed booster, but I would still take a full frame camera over the GH5 if possible.

Well, if I asume it... 

On 1/9/2017 at 10:18 PM, maxotics said:

I've used the Canon 24 TS on an Sony A7 but ran into glare issues because, as you know, the image plane is shifted off the sensor and it hits the surrounding area (which would would be an adapter on a Sony camera) and reflects back

Do you know if it still happens with the new adaptors? In case you used older versions...

On 2/9/2017 at 1:09 AM, TrueBlue said:

If you really want to get creative, quicklapse using a slider and camera with fully electronic shutter. Surprised I haven't seen the below technique repeated, quality is still the best I've seen across multiple techniques and formats.

wwoooww, really amazing! But, it leads me to the question: how to tell architecture in video? It looks like just images in movement whith depth of view and I thing I am going to use another language, less descriptive and more about use and storytelling. But always with an architectural and technical view.

On 2/9/2017 at 3:04 AM, noone said:

I use the 17 and previously used the 24 ii on an A7s and on a (sold) A7.

I actually prefer them on Sony mirrorless FF as they are easier to use (I use them for live music full band shots as well as other more usual subjects).

I use the 17 f4 L walk around at night, something I would never attempt to do with any current Canon.

For video, I have used the 17 for a really low light night time light festival as well as for some live music videos.

Which adaptor did you use?

On 2/9/2017 at 7:29 AM, Shirozina said:

I use 17,24 and 50 shift lenses on Sony A7r,A7r2,A7s as an architectural photographer without an problems and have shot video with them as well. The latest Metabones adaptors are flocked lined inside so no glare issues. Full time live view makes using these lenses very easy and better than on canon bodies + you get much better DR. It's a 'no - brainer' really! I'd avoid speedboosters though as the edge resolution can fall off quite dramatically which for architectural work is quite an important requirement.

Very interesting point about the edges!

I understant that if I just use adaptors and not speedboosters it isn't going to happen?

If I got the GH5, which adaptor would you recommend as a good balance between crop and sharpness?

[Shirozina]

I wouldn't recommend the GH5 for use with shift lenses as the crop factor will severely restrict the usefulness of your shift lenses - your 24mm will become like a 50mm on your 5D2. 

[noone]

I mainly use a Metabones IV (not the latest version) but I also use a couple of others sometimes.

The Metabones is designed to take TS lenses with a larger sculpted hole (bigger at the corners so shifting is covered better).

I also use a cheap no name as a back up to the MB and an even cheaper Fotga that is very lightweight and I wouldn't use it that often except it has a small ledge in it that almost exactly matches the glass from a 43mm filter which means I can use cheap filter glass (the metal rims filed off) which is a LOT cheaper than using 150mm filters in my filter holder.      Only have a IR filter and graduated filter so far (the IR filter works well with it).

This Fotga  adapter is the one I use for AF with other Canon lenses mainly.

[maxotics]

6 hours ago, Marc T said:

Nikkor, Hyalinejim, HockeyFan12, Maxotics and IronFilm... your recomendation of ML is something to consider, but I am scared about developing times. My clients are architects, builders and business owners whom I am trying to persuade to spend some money in video marketing about their works or spaces. It is going to be really low cost, but I hope to compensate it with my architect viewpoint and photography background. I can't make my current workflow any longer if I want it to stay profitable. Nowadays I feel comfortable whith the footage the XC10 gives me and the time it takes from there to the finished video. Maybe (or most likely) I am missing something to properly consider ML workflow equivalent to the workflow I am doing now... ?

On the other hand, ML is only 2K in 5D3 in FF, and 4K in 2.25x crop. So here it behaves like any other cropped sensor. I expect to use 4k to move and zoom around the footage because 2K is still my delivery format. Limiting factor there...

I still don't understand what you're trying to achieve.  I agree, the XC10 is a great camera for most video projects.  

The problem with Canon interchangeable-lens cameras, which Andrew has sort-of touched on  is the Cinema cameras (C100/200/300 etc) produce a fantastic image, sharp and with nice colors, while the consumer cameras, like the D80 and 5D3/4 are very soft in H.264 (my opinion).  I have an old C100 and the 80D doesn't hold a candle to it.  So if you put those lenses on a Cinema camera I think you'll either want to rob a bank to get one, or will get depressed that you don't have one.  Anyway, they are the final goal for you.

My guess is the image with one of your lenses on the 5D2 looks soft, which is partially why you started this post.  But yes, in order to get a sharper image you need to use ML RAW and you're right, it is a LONG/HARD workflow.  If you're doing short architectural shots, however, the setup-time may be a lot more than the time you'll spend developing ML.  Post processing RAW video, like everything else, is something you CAN do quickly once you figure out a work flow.  That is, it isn'st as bad as you might think, after the initial tears

I discovered ML from this site when Andrew did the 50D RAW handbook.  I can definitely say that working with Magic Lantern has grown my photographic knowledge a thousand percent.  Even if you never use it, I bet you find any time you put into it vastly rewarding.  If you're on a PC then ML RAW is pretty easy to work with in MLVProducer.  Indeed, I feel there is no excuse for someone not to get ML RAW into their tool-chest.  The tools these days are light years ahead of what were available when Andrew wrote that first guide (when you have to use command line programs to create DNGs, etc.)  Now you can do a basic grade and go straight to ProRes!

Also, I don't know how to say this without annoying some people, but even 720p RAW video provides a look you simply can't get with any compressed CODEC.  That look may turn out to be crucial for what you want to achieve.  So you need to see for yourself. 

Here's a video where I touch on it.  Sorry if most of it is boring.  I also have a video after it with 7D footage.

 

 

 

[Trek of Joy]

On 9/2/2017 at 0:09 AM, TrueBlue said:

High DR and a distortion free wide angle lens are essential. Architectural work will be locked off on tripod or slider so ibis not as important. Best architectural works I have seen are all shot on RED, where the DR really shows up and makes an enormous difference especially on interiors. If more budget, I would look at something like an a6500 with slog and Samyang 12mm f/2.0. NX1 and Samyang 12mm is a nice combo as well if you stick with mostly exteriors. 

If you really want to get creative, quicklapse using a slider and camera with fully electronic shutter. Surprised I haven't seen the below technique repeated, quality is still the best I've seen across multiple techniques and formats. 

 

This was done with a d800, agree its really cool.

[no_connection]

Using the anamorphic mode on GH5 would give limited tilt shift in post I think,

[IronFilm]

Fair point about many real estate shoots being low cost / high volume shoots. 

In that case it is very important that you have a highly functional camera which operates smoothly to just get out of the way and let you get your shots!

In which case the Panasonic GH5 is the clear winner hear ahead of any other hybrid/stills camera.