Sony's new full frame CineAlta camera is announced: VENICE

[IronFilm]

http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/09/06/sony-unveils-venice-36x24mm-full-frame-digital-motion-picture-camera-system/

"the camera’s lens mount can also be changed to E-mount (lever lock type), which opens up a lot more options for using a wide variety of lenses."

Today marks the end of Sony's FZ mount :-( As a Sony F3 owner it makes me a little sad :-/ But I'm not too surprised (& the FS7mk2 was a small hint), as I half expected this day to arrive eventually.

This does make Panasonic look even more dumb now, because they didn't announce their EVA1 with a locking MFT mount. (As heck, Sony can put E mount into their highest of high end cameras!!)

 

"The Sony VENICE CineAlta digital motion picture camera system is scheduled to be available in February 2018. No pricing information was given on release."

Reckon I'll be able to afford it with what I find down the back of the couch?

[Don Kotlos]

10 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Reckon I'll be able to afford it with what I find down the back of the couch?

I believe you will need one more couch for the upgrades.  Cause yeah $40K isn't enough   

[Andrew Reid]

VENICE is a really good name for a camera.

I hope they work through the rest of Italy and call the A7S III "Florence".

[Cinegain]

I wish they would actually make something Nice...

(Like an A69 that's a mirrorless APS-C camera with the rough formfactor and functionality of the GH5 and a plethora of exciting compact lenses native to that sensor size)

[jax_rox]

Cue all the comments about how terrible Sony's skin tones are and how unusable SLog is  

[EthanAlexander]

28 minutes ago, jax_rox said:

Cue all the comments about how terrible Sony's skin tones are and how unusable SLog is  

Right? Sony colors are the worst! So gross.

Look at this grossness:

Or this disgusting s***:

This makes me want to puke:

 

I mean, how can you even think this looks like real skin??:

 

 

[deezid]

44 minutes ago, EthanAlexander said:

Right? Sony colors are the worst! So gross.

 

The F23, F3, F35, F5, F55, F65 are amazing in terms of color. Everything else from Sony is kinda rubbish though.

[EthanAlexander]

4 minutes ago, deezid said:

The F23, F3, F35, F5, F55, F65 are amazing in terms of color. Everything else from Sony is kinda rubbish though.

It's hard to imagine the Venice won't continue in this tradition. I do hope that some of the color science makes its way down the line, though, yes.

[Don Kotlos]

42 minutes ago, deezid said:

The F23, F3, F35, F5, F55, F65 are amazing in terms of color. Everything else from Sony is kinda rubbish though.

That is because on one hand you have color professionals and on the other people that don't even know how to use picture profiles. Once you know what you are doing, PP offer the most flexibility in terms of color in any consumer camera. 

[EthanAlexander]

1 minute ago, Don Kotlos said:

That is because on one hand you have color professionals and on the other people that don't even know how to use picture profiles. Once you know what you are doing, PP offer the most flexibility in terms of color in any consumer camera. 

I agree, and because everything I shoot is graded, I appreciate the flexibility in post that S Log provides. Ultimately, for my work this is more important than "out of the box" colors.

On the other hand, cameras like the F55 and F65 do "see" WAY more colors than even the FS7. In fact, none of the cameras below the F55 can even detect the entire range of S-Gamut. This is due to the quality of the color filters. Even though they're named the same thing on cameras all the way down the line, this is just for ease of workflow so that LUTs will work as expected, etc. 

 http://www.xdcam-user.com/2017/04/will-a-bigger-recording-gamut-give-me-more-picture-information/

 

[jcs]

From what I've seen the F55 is not nearly as good as the F65, for whatever reason (hardware, grading, etc.).

Before the Sony A9, the default PP's haven't looked very good (still can create weird skin tones). People had to figure out how to get decent color, e.g. for the A7S II using Slog2 + SGamut3.cine + 12 Sat + manually setting WB and WB Offset. The A7S I and FS700 had very challenging color, especially for skintones.

Note that Canon's default Picture Style on the 1DX II doesn't look as good as the 5D3 (I had to create a custom Picture Style, which was way more work than should be necessary).

If WB and exposure are set correctly, these cameras should produce gorgeous results with the default settings (Like Fuji & Olympus)!

[Mattias Burling]

3 hours ago, EthanAlexander said:

Right? Sony colors are the worst! So gross.

Look at this grossness:

Or this disgusting s***:

Imho the first two looks pretty darn awful in terms of skin tones. They look sick and ready to puke. But maybe that was part of the story

Sony has some nice colors in some cameras. The best one I had was the FS100.

And S-Log is ok. It needs practice. My current beef with Sony is the well below the bar reliability. There is always some problem with the once I buy lately. And I have bought many. At least 8 just in the last two years.

[EthanAlexander]

I want to like your post @jcs but I also don't want to ruin your triple 8 rep

Just now, Mattias Burling said:

Imho the first two looks pretty darn awful in terms of skin tones. They look sick and ready to puke. But maybe that was part of the story

Hmmm... This is where it gets subjective. I'm looking at them on a calibrated monitor, and they all look great to me.

2 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

My current beef with Sony is the well below the bar reliability. There is always some problem with the once I buy lately. And I have bought many. At least 8 just in the last two years.

Weird. Mine have been rock solid.  I doubt they'd hold up like my 5D3 though... that baby was submerged in the Pacific ocean briefly, died (canon service center pronounced it dead), and on the third day came back to life! Not even joking.

[Mattias Burling]

Its very subjective. It always is. Image quality is not measurable in any way. Its all up to the viewer.

Regarding calibrated monitor. I dont want to have to use that. And I definitely wouldn't want a camera where only 0.000001%  of the viewers can appreciate it.

But with that said, I will be in front of my Ezio at work in an hour. 

So let me get back to you

[BenEricson]

3 hours ago, Don Kotlos said:

That is because on one hand you have color professionals and on the other people that don't even know how to use picture profiles. Once you know what you are doing, PP offer the most flexibility in terms of color in any consumer camera. 

The FS5 - FS7 cannot produce what the CineAlta can produce. I wish the FS7 had the F3 color. I own the F3 and love it, but have yet to see any FS7 footage that I have really liked.

5 hours ago, jax_rox said:

Cue all the comments about how terrible Sony's skin tones are and how unusable SLog is  

This is more like what an average person actually gest with the FS5 and FS7. 

I remember my studio going from the FS700/7Q S-Log 2 to the C300ii. The difference in color is absolutely insane. I would do HSL adjustments, tons of masks, etc, still couldn't get close to what the Canon can produce with just a LUT and a quick three way adjustment. 

[Mattias Burling]

Now Ive peeped them on the calibrated Eizo.
Scarlet looks nice but not lovely, some green stuff.
Tom looks dying.
George looks great.
Undecided on the bear tones.

[Oliver Daniel]

Typical Sony Skin Tones Grading Session: 

1. Pull towards magenta.

2. Pull back to green. 

3. Pull a bit more back to magenta. 

4. A little nudge towards green.

5. Slight more magenta.

6. Increment of green. 

7. Too magenta, or too green? 

8. Arrgh sod it, looks good enough. 

 

The A6500 has the best skin tones at the lower end. 

FS7 and F55 and barely any different. 

The issue I've found is mostly the suspect white balance on Sony consumer cameras. Doesn't work as expected. This causes crap looking footage uploaded to Vimeo. 

On the VENICE, it looks like if you press button on it, a building nearby will explode. 

[ssrdd]

its doomed to fail agin like F65. 

Weekly or monthly paid upgrades!

Needs external recorder for RAW!

Can shoot max in 24fps in fullframe In RAW!

Sony S-log!

It doest shoot 8k in 2018 or never!

Native SxS memory cards!

To shoot fullframe 16:9 u need to wait till 2019!

No Auto focussing!

Retail price $41,000US (body only)!!!WTF/ still u endup paying twise for firmware upgrades.

[Ed_David]

Camera A is the red helium with IPP2

Camera C is the Sony F65 (slog3.cine, sgamut)

Camera F is Arriraw (Alexa Mini) going log-c

all with a filmconvert lut.

I think the slog3.cine is pretty good.

There is a natural green color to it that is nice.

But yea, there is kind of an orange look to their sensors.

Canon and Blackmagic have a more red look in skintones.

Red has a bizarre greenish overcast to it in their skintones.

But these are just my opinions.

 

The venice is, god-willing, going to be quite the camera.  With more inherient resolution than the alexa, with a nice form factor, and a camera that looks studier than the alexa mini.

The dynamic range and motion may be close to film.

Maybe not.

Just have to wait till footage comes out and tests come out.

Also, this camera is built like a beast.  And a removable sensor and the mount system - this should be looked at as quite innovative.  The ND filter as well.

Anyway, sure poo-poo away the Sony.

But I rather have this camera than a canon c700 or a panasonic varicam or a red helium.  Can it beat the alexa?  That's the question.

E is arriraw

 

A is red helium

 

 

C is F65

 

[Andrew Reid]

4 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Typical Sony Skin Tones Grading Session: 

1. Pull towards magenta.

2. Pull back to green. 

3. Pull a bit more back to magenta. 

4. A little nudge towards green.

5. Slight more magenta.

6. Increment of green. 

7. Too magenta, or too green? 

8. Arrgh sod it, looks good enough. 

 

The A6500 has the best skin tones at the lower end. 

FS7 and F55 and barely any different. 

The issue I've found is mostly the suspect white balance on Sony consumer cameras. Doesn't work as expected. This causes crap looking footage uploaded to Vimeo. 

On the VENICE, it looks like if you press button on it, a building nearby will explode. 

Haha this is so true.

Even in raw stills, compared to the CCD in the Leica M9, I have the same knife-edge too much green / too much magenta problem with Sony cameras.

Maybe it is a CMOS thing.