Sony's new full frame CineAlta camera is announced: VENICE

[Don Kotlos]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Haha this is so true.

Even in raw stills, compared to the CCD in the Leica M9, I have the same knife-edge too much green / too much magenta problem with Sony cameras.

Maybe it is a CMOS thing.

Nah, it is how colors are interpreted from the RAW files. Default settings for Sony sucks. Same for video. Thats why your profiles can produce nice colors. Try this for RAW stills:

 

[ade towell]

Here's a link to the VENICE shot film they showed at the presentation

http://ps.sony.co.kr/pro/article/broadcast-products-venice-videos

[deezid]

10 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Haha this is so true.

Even in raw stills, compared to the CCD in the Leica M9, I have the same knife-edge too much green / too much magenta problem with Sony cameras.

Maybe it is a CMOS thing.

It isn't.
Fuji, Canon, Panasonic, Sony Professional, Nikon etc. are not affected.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

22 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Typical Sony Skin Tones Grading Session: 

1. Pull towards magenta.

2. Pull back to green. 

3. Pull a bit more back to magenta. 

4. A little nudge towards green.

5. Slight more magenta.

6. Increment of green. 

7. Too magenta, or too green? 

8. Arrgh sod it, looks good enough. 

 

The A6500 has the best skin tones at the lower end. 

FS7 and F55 and barely any different. 

The issue I've found is mostly the suspect white balance on Sony consumer cameras. Doesn't work as expected. This causes crap looking footage uploaded to Vimeo. 

On the VENICE, it looks like if you press button on it, a building nearby will explode. 

I've never read anything so correct in my life. 

This was my entire day today.

The weird thing is that the green/magenta thing skews with exposure, at least on the A7S. Overexposed shots or areas of the shot are greener than others, which makes hitting that balance incredibly difficult. The best method I've found if you really need to nail it dead on is to correct with a custom curve in the green channel, then dial in your lift/gamma/gain separately while zoomed in on a highlight/midtone/shadow. And even then you'll probably have to do some mucking around in hue vs hue.

Luckily, my F3 doesn't suffer from any of this(at least in S-LOG). A bit of red in the shadows, but that's an easy enough fix and hardly shot-breaking. 

[hmcindie]

On 07/09/2017 at 0:03 PM, Oliver Daniel said:

Typical Sony Skin Tones Grading Session: 

1. Pull towards magenta.

2. Pull back to green. 

3. Pull a bit more back to magenta. 

4. A little nudge towards green.

5. Slight more magenta.

6. Increment of green. 

7. Too magenta, or too green? 

8. Arrgh sod it, looks good enough. 

Yup. There's something weird going on there, especially on the original A7s as it looked like the Sony was missing colors. Everything looked okay until you start pushing it around and then it seems to skip shades.

[jax_rox]

On 9/7/2017 at 1:45 PM, jcs said:

 

From what I've seen the F55 is not nearly as good as the F65, for whatever reason

 

The sensors are different, though they use the same CFA. And really, 'not nearly as good' has a slightly different meaning when talking about the F65. You're certainly right, but the F55 has been used extensively on numerous ultra high-end TV shows and feature films and I would posit that plenty here wouldn't even know.

On 9/7/2017 at 4:34 PM, BenEricson said:

Log 2 to the C300ii. The difference in color is absolutely insane. I would do HSL adjustments, tons of masks, etc, still couldn't get close to what the Canon can produce with just a LUT and a quick three way adjustment. 

But that's kinda the point. Canon has tweaked Clog to get more out of it, but it's essentially designed as a 'pseudo-log' for consumer use that was able to hold more dynamic range than would otherwise be possible, however still be workable in 8-bit and be easy to pull it back to 'normal'.

S-log is entirely different.

And that's the problem. You really need to learn your log curves to make things look 'right' - otherwise you shouldn't shoot log. Many people did (and still do) come from Canon and attempt to apply their basic knowledge of Canon log to Sony footage and then get upset when it doesn't work the way they want. 

S-log3 puts skin tones at about 35-40%IRE or something. Which is super low. You look at that in your live view, assume the skin tones are underexposed, crank the exposure so they look right, and then when you come to grade it can't figure out why your skin tones look so bad.

Turns out S-log doesn't put as much information into the exposure where you've ended up putting your skin tones, so of course they start to look ugly. Then you blame Sony for not being able to make a camera that looks any good.

On 9/7/2017 at 8:55 PM, ssrdd said:

Needs external recorder for RAW!

Can shoot max in 24fps in fullframe In RAW!

Sony S-log!

It doest shoot 8k in 2018 or never!

Native SxS memory cards!

To shoot fullframe 16:9 u need to wait till 2019!

No Auto focussing!

Retail price $41,000US (body only)!!!WTF/ still u endup paying twise for firmware upgrades.

Man, it's cheaper than an Alexa SXT. Alexa, which uses SxS cards or needs Codex cartridges and a more expensive card slot for raw, doesn't have a full frame sensor, doesn't shoot in 8k and doesn't have auto focus.

 

[BenEricson]

2 hours ago, jax_rox said:

S-log3 puts skin tones at about 35-40%IRE or something. Which is super low. You look at that in your live view, assume the skin tones are underexposed, crank the exposure so they look right, and then when you come to grade it can't figure out why your skin tones look so bad.

Turns out S-log doesn't put as much information into the exposure where you've ended up putting your skin tones, so of course they start to look ugly. Then you blame Sony for not being able to make a camera that looks any good.

Nope. I have used the F3 for over a year now and sensor and image is excellent. I assume this new camera will be the same. The FS700/S-LOG2 was garbage. Using the 7Q with a LUT preview is not that hard to expose correctly. The image was acceptable and the 120/4k is excellent, but not what you would expect with the bitrates and resolution the 7Q pumps out. I had no problems with the Black Magic Pocket, either. The FS7 is supposedly better, but the large majority of that footage looks orange, dull, or the greens are off.

C-Log 2 and C-Log 3 are not available on the 8 bit c100 or c300 you're referencing. I'm talking about 10 and 12 bit files from the C300ii. 

Do all of the Cine Alta cameras also have "'pseudo-log?" 

[Mattias Burling]

2 hours ago, jax_rox said:

Many people did (and still do) come from Canon and attempt to apply their basic knowledge of Canon log to Sony footage and then get upset when it doesn't work the way they want. 

I have never had any issues with BMD-log, Red-log, C-log, J-log, any log really. Accept S-Log. I can use it but it takes much longer.

Maybe one do need to spend fifty times longer learning it. But that sounds like really bad log in my ears.

To me it sounds just like when people defend Sonys weird white balance with having to learn it... thats like having to learn how to remove the lens cap. A simple and fundamental function that is super easy on all other cameras... Nah.. it sucks imo. Just badly done.

And I know some will be tempted to say that its me that sucks.. dont bother. If I can set a perfect WB on any camera in the world but sometimes struggle on the Sony, it sure isn't me that needs tweeking.

[jax_rox]

4 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Nope. I have used the F3 for over a year now and sensor and image is excellent. I assume this new camera will be the same. The FS700/S-LOG2 was garbage. Using the 7Q with a LUT preview is not that hard to expose correctly.

The F3 has Slog1, a radically different curve to both Slog2 and Slog3. I remember plenty of people struggling with SLog3 on the F55, for example, who had come from Alexas and not put the time in to learn the curve.

Exposing 'correctly' using a LUT is entirely different to learning how the curve works and placing your exposure where you want it. Which you need to do. I was disappointed with the noise and dynamic range out of Alexa's until I learned how LogC works and exposed accordingly.

4 hours ago, BenEricson said:

C-Log 2 and C-Log 3 are not available on the 8 bit c100 or c300 you're referencing. I'm talking about 10 and 12 bit files from the C300ii. 

Do all of the Cine Alta cameras also have "'pseudo-log?" 

CineAlta is Sony, so they have Slog2 or 3. They're not pseudo-logs. Canon's C-log started as a pseudo-log. It's morphed since then, but it's original intention was to have a 'lightweight' log that was easy to grade and get a good image out of quickly. It comes at the expense of dynamic range (though Canon cameras also use digital gain for ISO, rather than the Sony/Alexa/RED method of shifting mid-point, which also affects both dynamic range and noise). Sony's intention is a more aggressive curve that gives you the maximum dynamic range possible. It's a more aggressive curve than the Alexa's LogC.

If you expose it with knowledge of SLog and how it works and where it's best to expose the things you want exposed, it looks great. If you treat SLog3 like C-log or LogC you're going to think it sucks.

That's not really a fault on the manufacturer, and realistically there's nothing forcing you to buy or use a Sony camera if you're dead-set against it. Many continue to at all levels of production, despite how supposedly terrible they are.

 

4 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

I have never had any issues with BMD-log, Red-log, C-log, J-log, any log really. Accept S-Log. I can use it but it takes much longer.

Maybe one do need to spend fifty times longer learning it. But that sounds like really bad log in my ears.

It's a different curve to all of those. You should learn any curve you're going to be shooting on and expose for that particular curve as they're all different and they all put their exposures at different values and hold more or less information in some areas. SLog3 (and 2) are much more aggressive curves than all of those. None of those other curves put skin tones at 35 IRE.

4 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

And I know some will be tempted to say that its me that sucks.. dont bother. If I can set a perfect WB on any camera in the world but sometimes struggle on the Sony, it sure isn't me that needs tweeking.

I've honestly never had an issue with Sony's white balance, so don't know what you're talking about. 

Do you mean AWB..? 

Look, I ain't no Sony fanboy, but I've used Sony's a lot (just as I have Alexa's and Reds and Panasonics). But I spend more than 5 minutes testing how to appropriately expose cameras. Of course I have camera preferences. But I'm a DP who shoild be able to make any camera look good.

So when the best the rental house can do on our budget is an F5 or F55 or perhaps an FS7 (and/or I have to use my A7sII in some capacity), I'm going to say 'sure, I can make them look good' because I know I can. I'm not going to complain because Sony make 'such terrible cameras' (that somehow only a small subset of people seem to have trouble with...). I don't really like the images out of the C300. I'm not a fan of Canon's orange tints and ultra-warm skin tones generally. But I understand it and can work with it if necessary. I'm not going to hit up an Internet forum and talk about how bad Canon is because I don't like their camera as much.

[ssrdd]

On 9/14/2017 at 8:39 PM, jax_rox said:

The sensors are different, though they use the same CFA. And really, 'not nearly as good' has a slightly different meaning when talking about the F65. You're certainly right, but the F55 has been used extensively on numerous ultra high-end TV shows and feature films and I would posit that plenty here wouldn't even know.

But that's kinda the point. Canon has tweaked Clog to get more out of it, but it's essentially designed as a 'pseudo-log' for consumer use that was able to hold more dynamic range than would otherwise be possible, however still be workable in 8-bit and be easy to pull it back to 'normal'.

S-log is entirely different.

And that's the problem. You really need to learn your log curves to make things look 'right' - otherwise you shouldn't shoot log. Many people did (and still do) come from Canon and attempt to apply their basic knowledge of Canon log to Sony footage and then get upset when it doesn't work the way they want. 

S-log3 puts skin tones at about 35-40%IRE or something. Which is super low. You look at that in your live view, assume the skin tones are underexposed, crank the exposure so they look right, and then when you come to grade it can't figure out why your skin tones look so bad.

Turns out S-log doesn't put as much information into the exposure where you've ended up putting your skin tones, so of course they start to look ugly. Then you blame Sony for not being able to make a camera that looks any good.

Man, it's cheaper than an Alexa SXT. Alexa, which uses SxS cards or needs Codex cartridges and a more expensive card slot for raw, doesn't have a full frame sensor, doesn't shoot in 8k and doesn't have auto focus.

 

 

Arri alexa sxt is by far the best camera, Motion cadence, Noise levels, Skin tones, Low light, Hightligt, Color what ever it is,  its an bosolute cinema camera. Sony Slogs are too complicated and who gives a shit learning their complexities. Sony scheme is to charge as much Arri[when u add all accessories]. With out 8k 60fps its not Future proof camera for me. 100K investment on sony, i will never recover on rentals. Where as Arri demnad is endless...

[Don Kotlos]

 

[IronFilm]

I'm going to get to work with a Venice tomorrow! :-D

 

[IronFilm]

Spotted this comment and video shared  by Dennis Hingsberg over on RedUser:

 

Quote

Lately it seems Sony has been doing the opposite of most camera manufactures - they under promise on announcements then end up over delivering. Lack of 60p FF were some of the things people balked at when Venice was first announced but now they are trying to "bring it".

Some additional info about Sony's Cine Gear 2018 VENICE announcements:
• VENICE firmware v2 will support 60fps 4K 17:9 and 48fps 4K 4:3.
• 1-25fps can be 6K 3:2 full frame; 1-30fps can be 6K 17:9; 1-48fps can be 4K 4:3; 1-60fps can be 4K 17:9.
• The target is 60fps 6K, 90fps 4K, 120fps 2K. Due by end of year. 17:9 options in development. Should be available within a year. No sensor change needed
 

 

 

[webrunner5]

9 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Spotted this comment and video shared  by Dennis Hingsberg over on RedUser:

 

I have no clue why some one hasn't sort of thought about that idea years ago. That is a game changer for in car stuff, Jigs, Cranes even Drones etc.. Probably nothing saying they might even be able to make the head wireless in the years to come. Now That would be something. Man Sony is a Pit Bull when it comes to video stuff.

[Hans Punk]

On 6/11/2018 at 3:20 PM, webrunner5 said:

I have no clue why some one hasn't sort of thought about that idea years ago. 

Arri did about 7 years ago

[IronFilm]

 

 

[jonpais]

Nice advertisement.

[IronFilm]

This video is kicking up a fuss over in the REDuser forum that he isn't shooting the rest of Avatar movies on a RED!