Why I feel Panasonic treats all but GH5 users as a second class

[Amazeballs]

I have G85 and I just wonder how much of this wonderful camera potential has been realized and I have a strong feeling that both GX85 and G85 are heavily bottle necked by Panasonic firmware, not hardware. 

For example, G85 processor is faster than G7, but all the frame rates are the same. No 96 fps, not even 72 fps. Even crop is better than on GH4 - 2.2 instead of 2.3. That's again means faster processor. So 96 should be possible, but we have pitiful 60 fps, same as on 2 year old model (G7). Even my sluggish GX7 had 60 fps FHD and it was way way slower then G85 in every way. 

Then, we have those wonderful focus transitions on GH5, and nobody else has them. Why? Its a simple software feature. If a new iphone gets an update with a new feature - all the iphones get it. Ok, not the oldest one, but 4-5 generations get it. And Panasonic has it only on ONE camera. It would be logical an fair to its customers to spread this as an update for all their cameras produced at least in last couple of years. 

Renewed autofocus on GH5. Make an adopted improved version for other cameras as well. Its an algorithm. All your cameras suffer from bad AF, everyone knows that. So give them a little boost with a firmware update. Didnt hear any movement in that direction. 

V-log, why its an option for GH cameras only? Is there any hardware limitation? No. So why? Give users an option. You even sell it for 100$ and still dont let them use it. That hilarious actually. 

And I can continue. And you can as well. 

I feel that unless you dont buy the most expensive Panasonic Lumix camera you dont get the same first class treatment package as you do by jumping on GH bandwagon. And I dont like it. I want to buy GH5 or 6 when I will know that I do actually need it, that my needs have grown enough to justify this purchase and not cos Panasonic limited my current camera functionality with a firmware here and there, forcing me to switch, manipulating and making me feel like I am the person whos requests and wishes are not being taken into account.  

Besides all that I really struggle to understand why there is no official Panasonic forum for discussing all that. 

Wuf.. Ive spoken out my mind finally)

Curios to know what other ppl think of that. 

[Cinegain]

Of course it's true. Actually as well for hardware, like the GX isn't intended to have CineLike profiles or an audio interface. So you're forced out of that category of camera if you want some more. Same goes for the G of course. They'll let it lack certain features making you ache for a GH. Though... atleast they do it in a sort of understandable fashion, like, from a business perspective. The segmentation game Canon is playing is far worse.

[mercer]

I don’t know, I would say they’re comparable or actually Canon is better because they’re at least consistent. Plus every single model when updated, gets DPAF. It’s arguable that Canon’s DPAF is a comparable feature to Panasonic’s 4K 10bit because both are very desirable video features and the most important feature either company offers.

Of course, I don’t think you can expect Panasonic to give everything and the kitchen sink, but the G and GX models should at least get a higher bitrate 1080p. But I guess 1080p doesn’t sell 4K TVs?

Hell, there has been numerous replies regarding many GH5 users planning on purchasing HDR televisions due to the GH5 firmware update. And I would guess that the G series gets HDR before it gets high bitrate, all-i 1080p.

8 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

Of course it's true. Actually as well for hardware, like the GX isn't intended to have CineLike profiles or an audio interface. So you're forced out of that category of camera if you want some more. Same goes for the G of course. They'll let it lack certain features making you ache for a GH. Though... atleast they do it in a sort of understandable fashion, like, from a business perspective. The segmentation game Canon is playing is far worse.

 

[Dan Sherman]

Don't underestimate how much heat is generated by encoding video, and how the bodies size factors into what features it gets.

[Cinegain]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I don’t know, I would say they’re comparable or actually Canon is better because they’re at least consistent. Plus every single model when updated, gets DPAF. It’s arguable that Canon’s DPAF is a comparable feature to Panasonic’s 4K 10bit because both are very desirable video features and the most important feature either company offers.

Of course, I don’t think you can expect Panasonic to give everything and the kitchen sink, but the G and GX models should at least get a higher bitrate 1080p. But I guess 1080p doesn’t sell 4K TVs?

Hell, there has been numerous replies regarding many GH5 users planning on purchasing HDR televisions due to the GH5 firmware update. And I would guess that the G series gets HDR before it gets high bitrate, all-i 1080p.

 

DualPixel AF? I prefer MF. Counter feature carried over to new cameras: IBIS.

Canon colors? The post-GH4 generation actually has quite decent color. Counter feature: mirrorless bells 'n whistles, 4K & exposure/focus aids and overlays on every camera.

APS-C/FF VS 4/3"? Canon noise performance on the APS-C models isn't much better. And you can bridge the gap with bright wide lenses (crop/depth of field) and focal reducers. Counter 'feature': much smaller lenses can be used with each camera.

That's about the 3 things that could make me say 'ah, yeah, well, Canon does this', yet aren't close to being dealmakers for me.

What I couldn't do much about would be having Canon 2010-ish 1080p that isn't even actual 1080p... so yeah, for me Canon is far worse, pushing you towards the C-line up or 1D_ or FF bodies that are a couple 'o grand each or having to ML the shit out of your camera with tedious workflows.

Panasonic does give you a lot with their cameras, just they make very distinct separations between each, which is actually a benefit to the consumer... camera is smaller, less complex, cheaper to make = cheaper to buy. You want the better features? You pay more. Just, acceptably more (imho), rather than Canon that really just takes the piss out of consumers that buy cheaper cameras but hardly get much added benefit over a 2010 T2i/550D looking at the quality of the results. But you know, to each their own.

[quivering_member]

Absolutely, it's pretty frustrating when my G85 has plenty capable hardware which is deliberately throttled by the software for economic reasons.

1 hour ago, Cinegain said:

Panasonic does give you a lot with their cameras, just they make very distinct separations between each, which is actually a benefit to the consumer... camera is smaller, less complex, cheaper to make = cheaper to buy.

Don't pretend locking off features in software is good for the consumer, it's not good for anyone except Panasonic's shareholders

[Fritz Pierre]

I'm not really following this....are you suggesting that regardless of which camera you buy from Panasonic, or what you pay for it, all their cameras should be capable of the same features and IQ?

[jonpais]

I’m not following the logic here either.

[freeman]

Welcome to market segmentation. Its a strategy companies use to effectively sell their products in different markets. However, technological advancements can be on their own timeline, and you are seeing newer parts being used first in different market segments. Whatever team developed the GH5 did their research and testing, while the g85 or whatever was developed for a different market. Of course the cameras may be theoretically capable of performing better but that product and camera line is designed and marketed for a different segment. So they get one camera doing the features that are sellable to its desired market, and sell it there. Same reason you can get more horsepower out of a car just by telling the ECU to run differently.

[Amazeballs]

4 hours ago, Fritz Pierre said:

I'm not really following this....are you suggesting that regardless of which camera you buy from Panasonic, or what you pay for it, all their cameras should be capable of the same features and IQ?

If those features are software based, than yes, more or less. In real world you often pay for software, so I dont mind if Panasonic would charge some less premium camera users a little amount of money for those features. That would make some sense, that if you buy a more expensive camera you get everything in a package but if your camera is a cheaper variant you might spend a few extra to unlock some features. 

Otherwise that will just end with hacking their cameras by some enthusiast and Panasonic getting nothing out of it and loosing quality control. In real world if someone tries to bottleneck their hardware in similar fashion, that is what happens. I would donate money myself to such hackers if they start working on alternative firmware for my camera. 

[aldolega]

The G85 is a year old now, the GX85 about 1.5yrs. I'm not sure it's fair to compare them to the 6mo-old GH5, rather than the GH4, which they outclassed in some ways. The G90 and GX90 (or whatever the next generation are called) will certainly get some trickle-down features from the GH5.

Personally, all I feel I can reasonably ask to be improved on my G85 would be higher-bitrate 1080p. 25mbps is a bit too skimpy when things start moving. Outside of that, it's been a great upgrade/sidegrade from the GH4 for me. Better color, better lowlight, and most importantly, IBIS.

I paid $550 for the camera, I don't expect it to share everything with the quadruply-expensive GH5- even if it technically could (i.e. "artificial" marketing segmentation) share some things. Panasonic has every right to do this, both legally, and I even feel, "morally"- Panasonic is by far the most responsive to our segment of the market, and even if their cameras are "artificially" limited, they're still by far the best value on the DSLR/DSLM market for shooting video. If I was going to expend energy bitching at/about a camera company, Panasonic certainly wouldn't be my first choice.

The way I see it, get busy switching, or get busy hacking, because I don't see much coming of the angst otherwise.

35 minutes ago, Amazeballs said:

Otherwise that will just end with hacking their cameras by some enthusiast and Panasonic getting nothing out of it and loosing quality control.

Will it, though, actually? The last Panasonic to be hacked was the GH2. Vitaliy hasn't had any luck with the GH3 onwards, and Magic Lantern's work is all Canon-based, I don't see them starting from square one when they have their hands full with the Canons. I think holding out hope for a hack is a complete pipe dream at this point.

[Kisaha]

I do not even own any Panasonic, but they are clearly the spearhead of innovation and features, especially for video.

seriously, for less than 2000$, what else the GH5 DOES NOT have? Also, you can get new GH4 for less than 999€ also.

then you are complaining for a 500€ camera? Canon do not even offer 4K in double and triple price. Nikon do not offer. Fuji will release a 4K upgrade more than a year after a camera release (this is the most profound "hold back on features" case, ever), Sony -Sony is Sony, full of promises, under deliver on many important aspects.

[sanveer]

What you're asking is unreasonable by any yardstick. Why would Panasonic or anyone else in the Camera or any other industry give you too end features at low end ILC or mid-range Mirrorless or camera prices. It's like demanding C300ii features at 800D prices.

The only thing I think may be a possibility is that Panasonic should allow users in the GX85 range buy ($99?) Cineline D and other G85 type of features IF they can be implemented via firmware. Though Vlog would not come within that ambit, obviously. And no 180fps or even 96fps. 

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, Cinegain said:

Though... atleast they do it in a sort of understandable fashion, like, from a business perspective. The segmentation game Canon is playing is far worse.

Yup, all businesses practice segmentation of some sort or another. 
And yup, Canon does it far worse than Panasonic! (or Sony)

[Andrew Reid]

18 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

I have G85 and I just wonder how much of this wonderful camera potential has been realized and I have a strong feeling that both GX85 and G85 are heavily bottle necked by Panasonic firmware, not hardware.

I really think it's more like a hardware limit.

You need hardware acceleration for 10bit H.264 and H.265.

It's silicon, not software.

If you don't feel like you got what you paid for on the G85 and GX85, then I'm amazedballs.

They really do go beyond the specs you'd expect for the price.

Any closer to the GH5 and what would be the point of ponying up $2000 for it?

Making the G85 any better would kill the GH5 stone dead and nobody wants that to happen.

18 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

For example, G85 processor is faster than G7, but all the frame rates are the same. No 96 fps, not even 72 fps. Even crop is better than on GH4 - 2.2 instead of 2.3. That's again means faster processor.

Sensor readout speed isn't fast enough.

It's not just the processor.

18 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Renewed autofocus on GH5. Make an adopted improved version for other cameras as well. Its an algorithm. All your cameras suffer from bad AF, everyone knows that. So give them a little boost with a firmware update. Didnt hear any movement in that direction. 

Again it's not just software. The sensor has to be fast enough to scan for CDAF at over 240fps.

18 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

V-log, why its an option for GH cameras only? Is there any hardware limitation? No. So why? Give users an option. You even sell it for 100$ and still dont let them use it. That hilarious actually.

If they gave users the option to buy V-LOG for an extra $100 on a $500 camera, they would lose $1500 not gain $100.

I'm all for generosity, and Panasonic are much more generous than Canon.

You could argue that Sony having S-LOG on their consumers cameras gives them a bad reputation because a lot of consumers don't know how to grade it properly and it ends up all over the internet making people think Sony cameras shoot weird looking video.

18 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

I feel that unless you dont buy the most expensive Panasonic Lumix camera you dont get the same first class treatment package as you do by jumping on GH bandwagon.

You don't expect 1st class service when you buy an economy ticket on a flight though do you?

So why expect it with cameras?

 

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Making the G85 any better would kill the GH5 stone dead and nobody wants that to happen.

The G85 is going to be made better however, when the G90 gets released ;-)

[Andrew Reid]

There will always be bargains out there. Go and grab them, not moan

[TheRenaissanceMan]

So... you're upset that Panasonic's flagship is better than their lower end cameras?

[tugela]

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 12:16 PM, Amazeballs said:

I have G85 and I just wonder how much of this wonderful camera potential has been realized and I have a strong feeling that both GX85 and G85 are heavily bottle necked by Panasonic firmware, not hardware. 

For example, G85 processor is faster than G7, but all the frame rates are the same. No 96 fps, not even 72 fps. Even crop is better than on GH4 - 2.2 instead of 2.3. That's again means faster processor. So 96 should be possible, but we have pitiful 60 fps, same as on 2 year old model (G7). Even my sluggish GX7 had 60 fps FHD and it was way way slower then G85 in every way. 

Then, we have those wonderful focus transitions on GH5, and nobody else has them. Why? Its a simple software feature. If a new iphone gets an update with a new feature - all the iphones get it. Ok, not the oldest one, but 4-5 generations get it. And Panasonic has it only on ONE camera. It would be logical an fair to its customers to spread this as an update for all their cameras produced at least in last couple of years. 

Renewed autofocus on GH5. Make an adopted improved version for other cameras as well. Its an algorithm. All your cameras suffer from bad AF, everyone knows that. So give them a little boost with a firmware update. Didnt hear any movement in that direction. 

V-log, why its an option for GH cameras only? Is there any hardware limitation? No. So why? Give users an option. You even sell it for 100$ and still dont let them use it. That hilarious actually. 

And I can continue. And you can as well. 

I feel that unless you dont buy the most expensive Panasonic Lumix camera you dont get the same first class treatment package as you do by jumping on GH bandwagon. And I dont like it. I want to buy GH5 or 6 when I will know that I do actually need it, that my needs have grown enough to justify this purchase and not cos Panasonic limited my current camera functionality with a firmware here and there, forcing me to switch, manipulating and making me feel like I am the person whos requests and wishes are not being taken into account.  

Besides all that I really struggle to understand why there is no official Panasonic forum for discussing all that. 

Wuf.. Ive spoken out my mind finally)

Curios to know what other ppl think of that. 

Because the encoding is done in hardware and frame rates determined by the sensor read rate. The speed of the processor does not mean a whole lot of those two parameters are the same.

People seem to think that it is all software, but most of these limitations that so many fret about are in the hardware, not the firmware.

[Amazeballs]

After reading all the comments I want to proclaim that I take it back. I didnt know about sensor readout speed. Though I dont consider G85 a lower end camera in any way. It costed 900$ for me & I dont know where you lucky bastards get it for 500$. Its the second best mft video oriented camera that Panasonic makes after GH5 IMO. And I still wish they would show it some love in terms of firmware updates, adding some features from GH5. Anyway, my next camera probably will be G90 or GH6 and I will keep in mind that GH series get the best treatment, but I dont want to wait for too long for GH6 to arrive. Crossing fingers for PDAF in G90 on pair with Canon Dual Pixel.