Meeting Tomorrow - First Client - Advice Please!!!!

[Charlie]

Hi Guys,

I sent my reel to modelling video reel to some modelling agencies, one responded and I have a meeting with them tomorrow.

Couple of things.

1. They asked me to bring my portfolio, I assume they want to see my videos, by project type?? I am taking all of my work on my laptop.

2. If they ask me about rates I have no idea what say!! This is a profesional modelling agency, I have no idea what they are prepared to pay, although I can ask. (This is Spain by the way)

Any advice would be truly appreciated 

Charlie

 

[Kisaha]

They called you, so they like your work. That is very positive,

Show them some of your best videos, be optimistic and positive, but not over do it. Stay humble, but confident with your art and technic.

Pricing can be tricky. Ask them what they want you to do (make a few questions), and you can ask them what is the budget, which is not a joke, as everything has a budget, and maybe additional people or equipment is needed.

prepare a few scenarios with your price, if that makes you feel better.

Good luck!

[Grimor]

Good luck Charlie!!

[Snowfun]

I hope we get to hear the outcome!

[CanonTheBarbarian]

i wouldn't take less than a 1000 for a work day (even if it's spain), link to your reel vid ?

keep us updated bro

CTB APPROVED

[Jimbo]

Great news, Charlie! Hope it goes really well. My main advice would be don't undersell yourself on your day rate. One man band videographer day rates in UK are anywhere between £200-£800 / day. I normally pitch at £500 / day, but model work is a desirable skill in an industry that has money so I'd go higher. It's easier to negotiate down than up!

Be yourself and let us know how it goes! (and we' would love to see your work too)

[pablogrollan]

16 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

One man band videographer day rates in UK are anywhere between £200-£800

200 seems too low IMHO, unless you are an intern, a non-pro doing a favor or a reduced day rate based on the amount of days hired. I live and work in Madrid and 200 would be ok if you get hired several days a week every week...

Anyway, just like everywhere else, it depends on the distribution and the scale of the job -in this case, I suppose it is mainly internal or web use-, your skills/experience -although knowing how much others clients pay for your talent is only useful to you and measure the value of your time-, and the gear used. It shouldn't be like that but the rates are different if you are using proper lights and lenses on an FS7/C300 than if it's just you with a 5D and an on-camera light, regardless of your talent and the result.

If it's just you with your camera, don't go below 500€/day... and try to get something extra for an assistant.

[Kisaha]

You are mad people.

 

1) First of all it is his first job, ever. I did a lot of free, low payed jobs in late 90's so I can learn different skills in our field.

2) Also, southern of Spain unemployment is at all time high, almost double the unemployment rates of Madrid, Northern Spain and Catalunya.

When the rates for a normal 5 days/40 hours per week, is almost 800€ (it is half of those in Greece, unemployment is 30%), and he is probably getting black money (non taxed, but not insured either, that happens a lot in southern Europe), how would you ask for a day inside a studio shooting models?

3) if he got his mirrorless, with a couple of lenses, how do you charge for equipment? Usually it is around 2% of the market value (not when they were new).

4) I can't stress that enough. lack of experience, it is his first job, something happens on set, people see you differently and some how more sympathetic if they know you are just trying to braking in - and you get 200€ - thatn youbhave advertised yourself like - I do it all for 600€- type of guy. It takes one person being on set half a dozen times to realise one is inexperienced, and that is not a good thing. Imagine people being in the industry for decades, you can loose face, and future jobs just like that.

[kaylee]

good advice here!

stay calm and assertive

 

[zerocool22]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

You are mad people.

 

1) First of all it is his first job, ever. I did a lot of free, low payed jobs in late 90's so I can learn different skills in our field.

2) Also, southern of Spain unemployment is at all time high, almost double the unemployment rates of Madrid, Northern Spain and Catalunya.

When the rates for a normal 5 days/40 hours per week, is almost 800€ (it is half of those in Greece, unemployment is 30%), and he is probably getting black money (non taxed, but not insured either, that happens a lot in southern Europe), how would you ask for a day inside a studio shooting models?

3) if he got his mirrorless, with a couple of lenses, how do you charge for equipment? Usually it is around 2% of the market value (not when they were new).

4) I can't stress that enough. lack of experience, it is his first job, something happens on set, people see you differently and some how more sympathetic if they know you are just trying to braking in - and you get 200€ - thatn youbhave advertised yourself like - I do it all for 600€- type of guy. It takes one person being on set half a dozen times to realise one is inexperienced, and that is not a good thing. Imagine people being in the industry for decades, you can loose face, and future jobs just like that.

OP is doing videos for a while, its maybe one of his first customers, but its not his first video. 200€ is way too low, if he asks 200€ now. Offcourse the client will hire him. But you will not be able to negotiate for a much higher price for the next video. They come to you because you are cheap, not because you have skills. You cannot live from a 200€ dayrate (when taxes etc pass through it), then you are better off working for a production company. Well 1000€ per day might be too high as well, over here 1000€ per day in Belgium gets you a veteran DOP with Arri amira + light kit + movi + sliders etc. 

[Charlie]

Thanks for all the advice, the meeting went great.....until it got to price. They said they only do collaborations.

They want me to fim 2-3 girls for free. (very small easy videos) Then they will introduce me to all of the models and if the models want a video the models will pay me!!!..... Whaaaaaaat?? 

This is my last modelling video, im updating my reel. 

 

[Grimor]

Spain is different!

[Kisaha]

So much for 500£ per day..

everything is relative guys, you should do some fact checking about the world, not everywhere is London, nor Paris, nor LA.

Socio-economical reality is different, even between territories in same countries. I worked with a Swedish photographer a couple of weeks ago, he is 5 years in the business, while I am 19, he was earning 5-6 times what I earn per year, but then his rent was 2 times mine, his health insurance 3 times mine, he is living in a very organized and well built social state (some people call that Scandinavian Socialism), and while for me it was the coldest days since last March, he went to the pool sun bathing and swimming with other Swedes! What he earns in money, he looses in sun (just a joke, I loved the central-northern European weather when I lived, or visiting places).

In declining economies, like the ones is southern of Europe, with thousands of unemployed specialists from the golden decades of 90's and 00's, and hundreds of new kids coming into business every year, from very bad private media schools, there is so much you can ask. In my 11.000.000 country,  there is officially 29% unemployment (independent organizations say that is more than 35%), and almost 45-50% on dynamic ages, while almost 400-500.000 of highly educated people have left for other countries (brain drain), your bargaining chips are less than you think.

and do think about poorer European countries, middle eastern and African ones, most of Asia, etc. much less than 10% of the world has the ability to earn 500£ on a single day.

@Charlie you did your best, and you have the portfolio to support it. For more specialized advice, I think @kidzrevil is doing something similar, but in New York!

 

[Snowfun]

Quoting rates of pay (and worse, “I’d not do it for less than X”) is irrelevant. It is unfortunately likely to be the case that they can find someone cheaper (free) if they need to. It doesn’t really matter whether that person is better/worse more experienced/less experienced. If it’s “good enough” then it’s good enough. If it isn’t then from their perspective it doesn’t really matter. They’ll find someone else. The only light at the end of a dark tunnel here is that you have been offered an opportunity to prove that your services are invaluable to a market (apparently) prepared to pay. It is obviously your choice as to whether you want to make the investment (of time, primarily) required to exploit that opportunity. Perhaps this is a naive way of looking at things but in today’s economic climate (outside London, Paris etc) I suspect it’s also realistic? 

Looking at it as being asked to work for free appears very unattractive. But looking at it as being handed an opportunity to impress and develop a market on a plate is more positive. 

[kidzrevil]

Dont be worried ! You’re in the door and that is a great start !

organize your portfolio with only your best content. The first two videos you show have to make a strong impression. Aim for quality over quantity.

as far as rates are concerned that’s tricky. Thats where your understanding of the market, the client, your reputation & caliber of work come into play. The great part about rates is that you can negotiate them. You can practice timing yourself as you shoot and edit to see how long it takes you to complete a project. You can use that to help come up with your rates ! If this is your first time working with an agency you’re probably going to be working for free (trade for portfolio) but you can use them to build your port and raise your rates.

 

[pablogrollan]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

So much for 500£ per day..

everything is relative guys, you should do some fact checking about the world, not everywhere is London, nor Paris, nor LA.

Socio-economical reality is different, even between territories in same countries. I worked with a Swedish photographer a couple of weeks ago, he is 5 years in the business, while I am 19, he was earning 5-6 times what I earn per year, but then his rent was 2 times mine, his health insurance 3 times mine, he is living in a very organized and well built social state (some people call that Scandinavian Socialism), and while for me it was the coldest days since last March, he went to the pool sun bathing and swimming with other Swedes! What he earns in money, he looses in sun (just a joke, I loved the central-northern European weather when I lived, or visiting places).

In declining economies, like the ones is southern of Europe, with thousands of unemployed specialists from the golden decades of 90's and 00's, and hundreds of new kids coming into business every year, from very bad private media schools, there is so much you can ask. In my 11.000.000 country,  there is officially 29% unemployment (independent organizations say that is more than 35%), and almost 45-50% on dynamic ages, while almost 400-500.000 of highly educated people have left for other countries (brain drain), your bargaining chips are less than you think.

and do think about poorer European countries, middle eastern and African ones, most of Asia, etc. much less than 10% of the world has the ability to earn 500£ on a single day.

@Charlie you did your best, and you have the portfolio to support it. For more specialized advice, I think @kidzrevil is doing something similar, but in New York!

In this case I have to disagree... Not only is Spain the fastest growing economy in the EU -after a long and hard economic downturn- but also not every field is the same in every country. Filmmaking/advertising is big and with high rates in certain "not-so-developed" countries; for example, Czech Republic is full of qualified professionals working in international productions making a lot more than the average salary. In some countries, being a small producer or cameraman is a well paid job and in others not so much...

Here -Spain- 1000€ does not get you an experienced DP with Amira, lights, etc. Here, 1200€ gets you a nice DP -not top nor novice- without any gear, and hiring such a DP "mandatorily" involves renting a high end camera, lenses, lights and at least a couple of grips... Spain is not a super booming market in terms of filmmaking such as the UK or France, but it is ahead of most European countries and so are the rates -even if the median salary is lower-.

I'd never work for free unless the project really meant advancing in my career -and when you find such a project, normally it is well budgeted and everyone gets paid-; unpaid work spoils a certain type of client -the scum of the earth- who actually believe they can get that stuff for free. Once you have a portfolio, they are not going to pay you, either; they will keep offering you to work for free and if you decline they will look for someone younger/less experienced/probably worse that will agree to do it for free. In my experience those clients do not appreciate what you do and don't take you seriously. It doesn't matter if you are 21 and inexperienced, you should get paid according to your skills and what you bring to the table; after all your video is going to help them make a profit in some way. Really, if at least they had offered a 100€ flat rate per job they would've shown respect. If you can't afford it, don't buy it; just like you don't try to buy a Red Weapon and offer 500 € you should not conceive hiring somenone for free.

The fact that there are "specialists from the 90's" competing in the same market with kids form bad private media schools -which is true- just broadens that market. Not so long ago a commercial or a corporate video was something that only medium sized or large companies could afford. It was hard to make a corporate video for less than 7000-8000 € and a commercial was minimum triple that amount. Now there are many more products accessible to more companies with faster production and adjusted to the needs of each client. That doesn't mean there's no room for the novice -quite the opposite-, and there are "salary slots" depending on the job, but "for free" should never be one. Here 500 € for a job is not much, it could be an acceptable rate for somenone starting out -keep in mind that every job requires pre-production and post-production-, especially because it is very unlikely that you work every day and you'll have to survive on a couple jobs a month in the beginning.

[CanonTheBarbarian]

36 minutes ago, pablogrollan said:

In this case I have to disagree... Not only is Spain the fastest growing economy in the EU -after a long and hard economic downturn- but also not every field is the same in every country. Filmmaking/advertising is big and with high rates in certain "not-so-developed" countries; for example, Czech Republic is full of qualified professionals working in international productions making a lot more than the average salary. In some countries, being a small producer or cameraman is a well paid job and in others not so much...

Here -Spain- 1000€ does not get you an experienced DP with Amira, lights, etc. Here, 1200€ gets you a nice DP -not top nor novice- without any gear, and hiring such a DP "mandatorily" involves renting a high end camera, lenses, lights and at least a couple of grips... Spain is not a super booming market in terms of filmmaking such as the UK or France, but it is ahead of most European countries and so are the rates -even if the median salary is lower-.

I'd never work for free unless the project really meant advancing in my career -and when you find such a project, normally it is well budgeted and everyone gets paid-; unpaid work spoils a certain type of client -the scum of the earth- who actually believe they can get that stuff for free. Once you have a portfolio, they are not going to pay you, either; they will keep offering you to work for free and if you decline they will look for someone younger/less experienced/probably worse that will agree to do it for free. In my experience those clients do not appreciate what you do and don't take you seriously. It doesn't matter if you are 21 and inexperienced, you should get paid according to your skills and what you bring to the table; after all your video is going to help them make a profit in some way. Really, if at least they had offered a 100€ flat rate per job they would've shown respect. If you can't afford it, don't buy it; just like you don't try to buy a Red Weapon and offer 500 € you should not conceive hiring somenone for free.

The fact that there are "specialists from the 90's" competing in the same market with kids form bad private media schools -which is true- just broadens that market. Not so long ago a commercial or a corporate video was something that only medium sized or large companies could afford. It was hard to make a corporate video for less than 7000-8000 € and a commercial was minimum triple that amount. Now there are many more products accessible to more companies with faster production and adjusted to the needs of each client. That doesn't mean there's no room for the novice -quite the opposite-, and there are "salary slots" depending on the job, but "for free" should never be one. Here 500 € for a job is not much, it could be an acceptable rate for somenone starting out -keep in mind that every job requires pre-production and post-production-, especially because it is very unlikely that you work every day and you'll have to survive on a couple jobs a month in the beginning.

 

very very good advice, never work for free. pablogrollan - are you living in spain?, I didnt know that there is such jooouicy market for filmmaking, is it more Madrid or Barcelona ? maybe it's time to move south 

thanks for good advice, 

 

CTB APPROVED

[kidzrevil]

1 hour ago, pablogrollan said:

I'd never work for free unless the project really meant advancing in my career -and when you find such a project, normally it is well budgeted and everyone gets paid-; unpaid work spoils a certain type of client -the scum of the earth- who actually believe they can get that stuff for free. Once you have a portfolio, they are not going to pay you, either; they will keep offering you to work for free and if you decline they will look for someone younger/less experienced/probably worse that will agree to do it for free. In my experience those clients do not appreciate what you do and don't take you seriously. It doesn't matter if you are 21 and inexperienced, you should get paid according to your skills and what you bring to the table; after all your video is going to help them make a profit in some way. Really, if at least they had offered a 100€ flat rate per job they would've shown respect. If you can't afford it, don't buy it; just like you don't try to buy a Red Weapon and offer 500 € you should not conceive hiring somenone for free.

1 hour ago, pablogrollan said:

 

I'd never work for free unless the project really meant advancing in my career -and when you find such a project, normally it is well budgeted and everyone gets paid-; unpaid work spoils a certain type of client -the scum of the earth- who actually believe they can get that stuff for free. Once you have a portfolio, they are not going to pay you, either; they will keep offering you to work for free and if you decline they will look for someone younger/less experienced/probably worse that will agree to do it for free. In my experience those clients do not appreciate what you do and don't take you seriously. It doesn't matter if you are 21 and inexperienced, you should get paid according to your skills and what you bring to the table; after all your video is going to help them make a profit in some way. Really, if at least they had offered a 100€ flat rate per job they would've shown respect. If you can't afford it, don't buy it; just like you don't try to buy a Red Weapon and offer 500 € you should not conceive hiring somenone for free.

I totally agree. Never work for free & if you do make sure its on YOUR terms. You are going to edit the video the way YOU want to do it to showcase your style and make that clear. Your style is whats going to bring in future work so if you are asked to do something for free  and its not on your terms decline. And PLEASE DO NOT WORK FOR EXPOSURE ! That’s another scam I used to be subjected too when I was now starting out with. 

 

[Charlie]

Thing is, I don't need the money. I already have another business. So all I care about at the moment is making contacts. I don't know anyone in the modelling world. This is a chance to meet some people who work in this world.

Given my situation, would you do it? 

By the way, this is my current reel. 

 

[sondreg]

45 minutes ago, Charlie said:

Thing is, I don't need the money. I already have another business. So all I care about at the moment is making contacts. I don't know anyone in the modelling world. This is a chance to meet some people who work in this world.

Atleast consider what you need to do the work into the equation. Your camera wasn't free when you bought it, and it would probably cost you to rent if you didn't have one. Storage and an editing pc isn't free either. Neither is travel, royalty free music, lunch, software, etc... You'd also want to charge some for future investments too. How are you going to afford, say, a new lens through work if you spend all your money working? You'll quickly find these things really add up... This they should atleast cover!

If you're doing it for free you're practically throwing away your hard earned money & devaluing video work in your area, which in my opinion is totally unacceptable.