Sony A7R III announced with 4K HDR

[Don Kotlos]

47 minutes ago, mercer said:

Either way it’s good for the consumer but it’s also unrealistic and unfair to hold Sony, Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Fuji to the same standards when Panasonic is the oddball.

As much as I would love to have 10bit, it doesn't make any sense for the target audience of A7rIII. 

Having a reliable AF is by far more useful for the average A7r* video user. 

 

  

[jonpais]

Color me completely baffled - first, exactly how is Panasonic an oddball for being at the forefront in so many ways? And in what way is it unrealistic and unfair to expect other manufacturers to follow suit? Would I be wrong in drawing a parallel with Olympus and IBIS, by saying that Olympus was the oddball when they were the only game in town? Or that they were somehow making up for their deficiencies in other areas of image quality? And now, how is it that AF is more important than 10 bit for the 'average' A7r user? Is the owner of such an expensive piece of kit now the average consumer? Because in my book, manual focus is the way to go for professional looking video, not AF. In any case, does good AF somehow preclude Sony from offering 10 bit? I'd like to see the poll you are referring to, showing what Sony shooters think. Until that time, I would just speak for myself.

[kidzrevil]

3 hours ago, mkabi said:

In retrospect, this announcement is kind of surprising.... what ever happened to the a7 mark3? Thats the camera without the R or the S.

 

At this point sony is like fuck it. We made some new tech AND some TV’s to go with it soooo lets just slap a random # on it and put it out lmao

20 hours ago, raf702 said:

Not much of an upgrade here, now very curious to see what the A7SIII brings. That, or just stick with a A7RII

Same. Im hoping the a7siii has 10bit output. If not then I look forward to getting a cheap a7sii on ebay 

On 10/25/2017 at 1:46 PM, cantsin said:

This video clearly shows the difference:

 

This shows the difference when grading. Unless you have a 10bit monitor (which few of us do) the difference is imperceptible especially If you are uploading to the web. The web is still in an SRGB color space ?

[EthanAlexander]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Either way it’s good for the consumer but it’s also unrealistic and unfair to hold Sony, Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Fuji to the same standards when Panasonic is the oddball.

Agreed. Here's why I think some perspective is needed in all this...

To get 10 bit you need to pay:

• $1000 - Black Magic
• $2000 - Panasonic
• $4700 - Sony
• $10,000 - Canon

(The C200 doesn't count - having to record raw at 800Mbps just to get a nice 10 bit codec is just unrealistic for too many people. Even still, that's $7500! Same with hacking a 5D)

And to get full frame 4K:

• Sony - $2300
• Nikon - $3300
• Canon - $5700
• BM - Nope
• Panasonic - Nope. Oh, and they don't even offer S35 4K unless you pay $7350.

Not trying to bash any company, I just find it amazing that because one company offered 10 bit on a M43 sensor camera that it's now expected on every camera, regardless of sensor size or price.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love a 10 bit mirrorless Sony as a B Cam to my FS5, but I wish this kind of enthusiasm were directed toward demanding higher quality color filters, EVFs, audio preamps, exposure guides, etc., all of which are important for getting a shot whereas an 8-bit C100 can nail the same shot as a 10-bit GH5 4/5 times.

 

29 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Color me completely baffled - first, exactly how is Panasonic an oddball for being at the forefront in so many ways?

Every company is introducing firsts or offering way more in certain areas (canon is DPAF, Olympus with insane IBIS, Panasonic with 10 bit in mirrorless, Sony with Full frame mirrorless)... So I think @mercer is just saying that it's unrealistic to expect every other company to immediately follow suit and include the same features regardless of cost. At least, that's how I feel.

[Gregormannschaft]

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Right Glenn. Even though, I don't find on 5D3 outcome (for real) anything I can't handle on GH5 as well, I'd say ; ) I guess the opposite is much harder to reach... ;-)

When you can buy a couple of GH5ss for the same amount...?

Yes, it is. Indeed.

 

(Panasonic rules *period* call me fanboy now, I'll call it: ...against facts there's no - such - argument : ) BTW, I know of people selling their REDs... just because)

I've seen some real nice images come out of the GH5. My reservations: I don't like buying adapters to mitigate that micro 4/3 look. Autofocus isn't great, and I'd like to future proof myself in that regard in my next camera. I don't really feel like switching systems again. If Sony improved the codec in the S 3 to make SLOG cleaner, as well as bringing the battery + autofocus improvements, I'd be very happy.

[jonpais]

@EthanAlexander That's all well and good, but let's stick to 10 bit, not complicate matters with full frame 4K, okay? Otherwise, we can start throwing dozens of other features into the argument. Agreed? If your argument is just about the cost, what will you say when Sony releases an A7S III next year with 10 bit for the same price as the A7R III? Not saying it'll happen, but... Lots of features in tech cost a fortune just a few years ago that cost just pennies or are even free today. Also, I might be wrong, but I think it's got just as much or more to do with the processor than sensor size, and Panasonic's invested a lot in making a powerful one for the GH5.

[kidzrevil]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Fritz, I never said I hated it. I think it’s a great camera and if I was a wealthier man I would probably own one. But when Panasonic becomes the only manufacturer to introduce 10bit into a consumer camera, one must ask... WHY? I think it’s pretty self evident. Either way it’s good for the consumer but it’s also unrealistic and unfair to hold Sony, Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Fuji to the same standards when Panasonic is the oddball.

As far as likes and dislikes of the 5D3 or the GH5 or whatever... who cares what some random guy on the internet thinks? I chose the 5D3 over the GH5 because I wanted a different aesthetic... you chose the GH5 over whatever your second choice was for the same reasons. I’m not mad at you. Everybody has different tastes.

I personally think Panasonic does this to be “ahead of the curve” and to ensure compatibility with emerging technology. This works for them because the life cycle of their high end products lasts a longgggg time before they upgrade. You can see this with the gh4 tackling 4K under the expectation that it will be a standard. My assumption about Sony is the fact that they develop SO much technology they shorten their life cycle of their products to make use of their emerging tech. Its no mistake that Sony is pushing HDR over 10bit with this camera because the assumption is when you use a 10 bit camera you are going to output to 8bit anyway. HDR compatibility would be a better match for their new 4k HDR TV’s than a 10bit 422 camera would. Sony keeps their entire technology eco-system in mind when developing products. That’s just my two cents

[jonpais]

@kidzrevil I thought 10 bit was part of the spec for HDR, or am I mistaken?

[kidzrevil]

41 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@kidzrevil I thought 10 bit was part of the spec for HDR, or am I mistaken?

You are not mistaken at all, but you never know Sony may have found a way around it hence the 4K HDR tag all over the products promotion. Im sure a multi million dollar tech giant like Sony wouldn’t advertise something that doesn’t work with new HDR standard the industry is trying to push. Im sure they want to be at the forefront of that. Hell Kodak white papers says Cineon was designed to support 8bit / 10bit / 12 bit. Same with SLOG3. 10 bit is something that was reserved for heavy post production. 16.7 million colors are imperceptible to the human eye thats why the 8 bit standard was created to begin with. 

[EthanAlexander]

54 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@EthanAlexander If your argument is just about the cost...

It's not really, just posted those prices to show that we could find something wrong with every camera depending which feature we're interested in.

My main contention is simply what I wrote earlier:

1 hour ago, EthanAlexander said:

I wish this kind of enthusiasm were directed toward demanding higher quality color filters, EVFs, audio preamps, exposure guides, etc., all of which are important for getting a shot whereas an 8-bit C100 can nail the same shot as a 10-bit GH5 4/5 times.

 

[Emanuel]

Great Jon... You = yourself; one of my fav cam/glass critics (if not simply 'the one') over here ; ) That HDR/HLG label over 8-bit doesn't make any sense...

[jonpais]

I should have added that 10 bit would require not only extra processing power, but also better heat management, which, as we all know, is not Sony’s strong suit. Anyhow, it’s got less to do with cost than protecting their higher end products. I thought most here found that practice abhorrent, but it seems now they’ve got their defenders. 

[Emanuel]

Sony mirrorless cameras seem toys compared with the way ANY Panasonic cam presents themselves as brand to any serious shooter used to perform the best outcome from their front line. They're really battlefield-proof.

Disclaimer: I've always supported Sony gear; one of my 1st loves along Panasonic; actually as camera maker to begin with, but...

[kidzrevil]

12 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I should have added that 10 bit would require not only extra processing power, but also better heat management, which, as we all know, is not Sony’s strong suit. Anyhow, it’s got less to do with cost than protecting their higher end products. I thought most here found that practice abhorrent, but it seems now they’ve got their defenders. 

I don’t think anyone is that invested to care. So what if they are protecting their high end products ? Who doesn’t and who wouldn’t ? Business is business. I think with the amount of cameras that are out at all these different price points there is something for everyone. The a7riii is certainly not for me. I would waste that horsepower shooting HDR for the 2-4 people in the world with HDR tv’s to support it. That means nothing because  someone is going to find some feature available in this body that’s useful to them. Thats way better than only having a handful of cameras to choose from at $10,000 price points like how it was when videography wasn’t an accessible thing. Remember when SLOG was only available in $10k cameras ? All this cutting edge tech in their high end cams just means eventually its going to trickle down into the smaller units like the sony a6xxx series. So I don’t think people are defending Sony as much as we are all just accustomed to their business practices. It’s not like they are forcing us to buy it you know ?? If it flops they’ll have to change that abhorrent business practice BUT people will buy this camera and the world will keep spinning

[jonpais]

There used to be forum members here who did care, maybe they’ve stopped caring, I really don’t know. 

[Emanuel]

3 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

I don’t think anyone is that invested to care. So what if they are protecting their high end products ? Who doesn’t and who wouldn’t ? Business is business.

That's the whole point. Go there to ask Panasonic why the GH5 then?! ;-)

[kidzrevil]

1 minute ago, Emanuel said:

That's the whole point. Go there to ask Panasonic why the GH5 then?! ;-)

Yeah @panasonic why’d you create the GH5 ? We just figured out how to use the GH4 !!! LOLLL

[joema]

1 hour ago, kidzrevil said:

....This shows the difference when grading....

It shows the difference when you shoot 8-bit log then push the the colors hard in post. Of course 8-bit will degrade faster if it was captured in a flat profile. The question is how would the comparison look if the 8-bit side was *not* captured flat, then both sides were graded as best possible. It would likely look different but the 8-bit side would not have artifacts and banding. The 10-bit side might have more dynamic range due to the flat acquisition. But in that case it would be two different "looks", not one side with significant artifacts and one without.

[Don Kotlos]

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

 And now, how is it that AF is more important than 10 bit for the 'average' A7r user?

Just to be clear: Are you claiming that the average A7r user will find more useful 10bits versus reliable AF? 

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

I'd like to see the poll you are referring to, showing what Sony shooters think. Until that time, I would just speak for myself.

I made a poll so we can find out. 

https://***URL removed***/forums/thread/4217974#forum-post-60293172

[jonpais]

@Don Kotlos That’s cool! However, why must reliable AF preclude 10 bit? Why can’t we have both?