BenEricson Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 12 hours ago, jonpais said: @Vesku I can’t, and I’d like to do a double blind test with those who believe otherwise. All this motion cadence talk makes me fall on the floor doubled over with laughter! One claims Sony has lousy motion cadence, another Panasonic... Not once have I heard a director of photography, when talking about gear, mention motion cadence. The ear is more sensitive to changes in pitch, yet five years and over two hundred videos on YT later, several of which I mistakenly uploaded at the wrong frame rate, not a single person noticed - not even those in which I was speaking! Lumix GM1 1080p 28 Mbps looks lovely to me too, BTW. Depends what you're shooting. The way a camera looks when it jitters and shakes will change as well. Running with a bolex or a digital bolex looks awesome, looks absolutely horrible on a 5D. These are all obviously extreme settings but DSLR shake is gross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesku Posted November 1, 2017 Author Share Posted November 1, 2017 It is odd that I cant find any proper tests about the benefits of 400Mbs all-i. Just talking about easier editing and better IQ or re-compressed clips in YT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimor Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Vesku said: It is odd that I cant find any proper tests about the benefits of 400Mbs all-i. Just talking about easier editing and better IQ or re-compressed clips in YT. Probably because the only benefits are those. ade towell 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 I think what Vesku is trying to say is that there aren't any demonstrations of the advantages of ALL-I over IPB, just talk. But you can't really prove anything by uploading to YT, since it's no longer ALL-I. I think the answer is, if you've got the GH5, just try shooting with it and editing it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesku Posted November 1, 2017 Author Share Posted November 1, 2017 1 hour ago, jonpais said: I think what Vesku is trying to say is that there aren't any demonstrations of the advantages of ALL-I over IPB, just talk. But you can't really prove anything by uploading to YT, since it's no longer ALL-I. I think the answer is, if you've got the GH5, just try shooting with it and editing it yourself. I think I will not use 400Mbs. I am just curious if someone can show the benefits. The IQ difference should be easy to show with heavily graded and enlarged YT examples. If not why use 400Mbs for better IQ. If shooting just normal 8bit 4k it was a surprise that GH5 60P has better IQ than 30P (less compression artifacts and macro blocking). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Kotlos Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 @Vesku I tend to agree that the differences are pretty small. Have you seen any differences in the noise when shooting at higher ISOs? Also my impression is that the Prores files from the BMPCC are vastly superior as far as codec goes (see a post here). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesku Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 Here is GH5 1080P 100Mbs ipb vs 200Mbs all-i test (not mine). Can you see any difference in 400% enlarged examples. Panasonic ipb is very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 @Vesku I haven't watched the video yet, but the only way to judge ALL- I is by downloading the original files, right? When videos are uploaded to YT, they are no longer intraframe compression... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesku Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 57 minutes ago, jonpais said: @Vesku I haven't watched the video yet, but the only way to judge ALL- I is by downloading the original files, right? When videos are uploaded to YT, they are no longer intraframe compression... This video has enlarged 400% crops of ipb vs all-i. We should see the differences even with YT ipb quality if there is any. It is still silly when many user load examples of their 400Mbs tests using normal YT stream without enlarged or "tortured" examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 @Vesku Soon, I'm going to have to suspect you of trolling.... First of all, you've already posted several times that you see no difference between IPB and ALL-I. Repeating the same thing every day ad nauseum makes no sense. Everybody knows that YT changes uploaded videos to interframe compression, so the only way to evaluate the images is by downloading samples. Or, better yet, since you've got the GH5, shoot some samples yourself rather than complaining all the time about what random people upload to YT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Allegre Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 This kind of reminds me of comparisons between 5D3 H264 and externally recorded ProRes. People would post Youtube videos and look for minute differences in IQ when it should have been fairly obvious that the most significant advantages of recording externally to ProRes were seen in workflow and processing. Of course, it seems like today's NLEs/CPUs are much more capable of working with long GOP footage than they were a few years ago. jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonim Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Well, in the last example posted by Vesku, there are indeed differences in quality at most shooting instances, noticeably edge-cleaner 10bit image - although, of course, visible at 400% magnification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 10 bit was noisier to me, not cleaner. Uploader said the 10 bit files were noisier too, not cleaner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Less compression usually means more noise. H264 compression smooths out little noises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonim Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 For example: about 1:00 - rope from the boat and area under it are noticeably better articulate on 10bit - that's what I'm calling "cleaner" (looking at 15.6 computer screen) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Hill Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 Quote Whatever YT is doing to the shots, I preferred the all-I in the wide shots but it was more of toss-up when comparing the crops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezid Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 15 hours ago, hmcindie said: Less compression usually means more noise. H264 compression smooths out little noises. Agreed. And it's a good thing. Both the All-I and Long Gop codec have a beautiful noise structure at -5/-5 sharpening/nr. The 8 Bit codec on ther other hand sucks keeping the fine grain intact and instead leaves you with macroblocking and banding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Pierre Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 The other Pink Elephant in the room, is that we are approaching the point where any IQ improvement in a camera will become difficult to detect...It's like the days when I was obsessed with sound systems...constantly needed new speakers or amp or turntable, and the inprovements did not reflect what I was spending on the gear....at some point I started listening to music again instead of my system??...the same is true for these cameras....at some point one has to stop magnifying images to 400 percent and start doing something with them, or the acquisition becomes about the camera, instead of the content you create with it! There are some guys on DVXUser going through exactly the same quandary with the EVA1 now...the IQ is very good to my eye....the mount is a deal breaker...but these guys keep looking for more footage...and complaining about everything they see, while others are already shooting with the cam...I really believe we're close to the saturation point, where ergonomics, or the lenses you own or whether you light or not, informs which camera you choose. jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirozina Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 Y 25 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said: The other Pink Elephant in the room, is that we are approaching the point where any IQ improvement in a camera will become difficult to detect...It's like the days when I was obsessed with sound systems...constantly needed new speakers or amp or turntable, and the inprovements did not reflect what I was spending on the gear....at some point I started listening to music again instead of my system??...the same is true for these cameras....at some point one has to stop magnifying images to 400 percent and start doing something with them, or the acquisition becomes about the camera, instead of the content you create with it! There are some guys on DVXUser going through exactly the same quandary with the EVA1 now...the IQ is very good to my eye....the mount is a deal breaker...but these guys keep looking for more footage...and complaining about everything they see, while others are already shooting with the cam...I really believe we're close to the saturation point, where ergonomics, or the lenses you own or whether you light or not, informs which camera you choose. Yep - been there in hi-fi myself. You can get to the point where you are more interested in the 'reproduction of sound' than the music. You stop when you realise that you don't need perfect fidelity to appreciate amazing music. Then again that is essentially what ' the hi-fi world' is about and it's not necessarily a music thing....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 @Fritz Pierre I wonder if those hi fi guys were busy posting the same topics in six different forums at once? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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