New Panasonic G9 - multiaspect sensor?

[Davey]

I'll wait for Photo Joseph to tell us how brilliant it is before not getting one.

[IronFilm]

13 hours ago, leeys said:

That's a good question, why?

I was joking around in response that nothing can be shot unless it is 4K 10bit! :-P 

But seriously, to answer the question, here are two reasons why:

1) the 1st Panasonic GH1 was my first ever camera (which was video capable, I did already have a Nikon D50), thus holds a dear place in my heart, I'll probably never sell it?

2) the GH1 holds so little value now secondhand, it is worth more to me to keep them for when needed for multi camera shoots (as they do a decent enough image, are compact, good battery life, and have unlimited recording length! All great stuff for low budget multi camera shoots)

[kidzrevil]

So apparently the g9 does have better noise performance than the gh5. Im feeling an “I told you so” coming LOL

https://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-g9-beats-gh5-raw-comparison/

[eleison]

On 11/14/2017 at 11:28 AM, Don Kotlos said:

Here is the AF test in video:

 

PS He will be doing some video tests as well so if anyone wants to ask him for something specific here is the original thread: https://***URL removed***/forums/thread/4222635

 

There are still focusing jitters.  Look at the top left corner.  Focus on the edges of the roof.  It seems to me the camera is still focusing back and forth even when the subject is in focus AND the subject isn't moving just so that the camera can confirm that things are in focus.  Sometimes it's not as obvious because of the background blur.  If the DOF was increased a litte bit more, it would be more obvious.   I guess one way to mitigate the issue of the pulsing focusing of a contrast detection system is to have shallow depth of field.  Panasonic just needs to move to phase detection. 

[Don Kotlos]

Yeah I agree Panasonic should have moved to PDAF especially with their "pro photography oriented" G9 camera. S-AF might be good enough but tracking will always be affected by the lens/DoF/image contrast more than a PD solution. 

They currently have the best CDAF implementation, so once they add PD they can have a hell of an AF.  

[leeys]

DFD isn't so bad for stills, after all, once you nail it, that's it. Video however will show the annoying pulsing which in some situations is very very obvious.

[Cas1]

This would be just enough for a vlogger, but not for a wedding, I think. The G9 appears to be more precise and more responsive then the GH5. Can you tune the focus on the G9? if so set it to start changing focus faster (responsiveness) and focus a bit slower (low focusing speed to make it appear a bit more smooth).  I don't understand the Panasonic focussing software, but why cant the camera have a focus procedure like this:

1) Take base image measurement,

2) slightly change the plane focus and measure AMOUNT of change in blur.

3) based on the measured blur smoothly start moving the plane of focus to estimated distance the subject is.

4) while moving the plane of focus take additional measurements of the blur and adjust the estimated focus distance,

5) smoothly slow down the focusing speed to halt at the estimated focus distance.

6) have short polling intervals measuring the blur, if there is a change adjust focus to new estimated new distance. Am I thinking too simple?

Let's try a practical example. There is a lamp 10m away, the current focus is set to 25cm, the light is blurry. The camera records the outline of the blur. The camera starts to change focus, it focusses closer because that is the default direction. After a 0,05 sec small focus pull the camera takes a second measurement, tracing the blur, recognises the blur size has increased. The focussing software understands the direction of the focus pull is wrong (because the blur got WORSE) and inverts the focussing pull. Also the software knows from the amount of change in blur in relation to the F-stop and focal length how far the lamp is from the camera, this produces the first object distance estimate. The camera is set to 1 second focus pull, this determines how long the focus pull should take. Now the camera ramps up the focus motor, for a smooth start. At 0,5 sec, while refocussing the camera takes another measurement, and compares it to the previous measurement to measure how much the lamp's blur has been reduced, from this the camera produces a second object distance estimation. At 0,7sec the refocussing speed ramps down to lands smoothly on the estimate object distance, then another sample is taken and a new object distance estimate is made. If the blur is too small the camera skips pulling focus.

If the Panasonic camera's can have 240FPS focussing, the above should be possible and appear smooth I think.

Am I thinking to simple?

[Inazuma]

1 hour ago, Cas1 said:

 

As I understand it, that's exactly how it works anyway. It's just that in previous cameras the processor has been too slow to do this efficiently whilst recording. 

I don't know why they wouldn't just put in phase detection. My theory is that they are held back by Sony with contractual obligations. They're not allowed to use Sony sensors with phase detection. 

[Cinegain]

Agree with the first. Concerning the 2nd, I believe everybody else that's using Sony sensors hasn't got that problem, I think Panasonic just felt like betting on their own horse... which has seen a struggling season so far, so can they whip it back in shape or should they or we bet on another one instead? In case of that last one... Canon's selling point to me has been: DualPixel AF. They used to allow for quick turnarounds due to basic codec with 1080p, not too heavy on storage, and pleasing color science, basically allowing the users to throw on a curve, add some sharpness, cut the timeline and hit upload. But of course these days any camera shoots sort of pretty colors and some offer a very solid 1080p mode. But you still might pick Canon because of their DualPixel AF. Which is madness, that you buy a camera for a single feature. So it's really a missed oppertunity here by Panasonic not having good AF-C on a videocentric device.

[jonpais]

My own theory is that it would require millions of dollars and no less than six months  to a year to evaluate and come up with algorithms  for each and every lens in Panasonic’s lineup in order to debut a reliable PDAF system, resources they judged, rightly or wrongly, would be better spent refining features like anamorphic mode and coming up with codecs such as internal 10-bit ALL-I 400Mbps. Did their bet pay off? I think the answer is an unqualified yes. As @Cinegain rightly says, gambling on just a single feature in this marketplace would be  foolhardy. I think Panasonic has hit just about all the right notes.

edit: these remarks obviously pertain to the GH5, not the G9

[anonim]

Just impressionistic remark: dedication to polishing products and willingness to go further in democratizing art/hobby of movie making is - as it seems to me - higher by high margin in Panasonic than anyone else in respective field. Combining with extremely solidness of Panasonic cameras, it made impression of reliability and psychologically call to participate in pursuing this very clever thought game of step-by-step doze searching for ideal instrument. Sometimes, prosumer sector of Panasonic produce to me impression as Blackmagic on steroids. Which is nice. They will find a way to make and to offer reliable autofocusing - after precise calculation of market urgency for that. (I think that even now engineers in Panasonic have prediction of additional moves for several years further.)

[leeys]

10 hours ago, Inazuma said:

As I understand it, that's exactly how it works anyway. It's just that in previous cameras the processor has been too slow to do this efficiently whilst recording. 

I don't know why they wouldn't just put in phase detection. My theory is that they are held back by Sony with contractual obligations. They're not allowed to use Sony sensors with phase detection. 

I really doubt that's the case. Nikon can implement their own designs in Sony sensors (best example: Nikon 1 J5 with the Sony 1" 20mp sensor that has Nikon 1's own unique features not found in any other Sony camera), so it seems to me there's a combination of engineering, marketing and political issues at play here. Don't forget Panasonic has PDAF patents of their own.

[sgreszcz]

On 11/11/2017 at 7:41 PM, mercer said:

My friend picked up his first 4K camera the other day, the E-M10 Mark iii and even with its measley 4 stops of IBIS, I found it better than the GX85’s. And the color was fantastic... so organic. The E-M1 Mark II has 5.5 stops, so that camera will probably have IBIS as good, or better than the advertised 6.5 of the G9. Olympus IBIS is pure insanity. I saw a video from it and it looked like steadicam footage even while walking.

Yeah, debating two EM-10iii to replace my GX80s as I want better EVF and the Olympus colour which I prefer.  I was about to pull the trigger on the GH5, but the size puts me off a bit.  I might wait for the replacement GX camera to see what Panasonic offers.  I'm in no rush and don't have any projects on but have been contemplating selling all my lenses and going with the new Olympus 17.5/1.2 and 42.5/1.2 lenses and the 12-100/4 for outdoor run-and-gun.  Simple hybrid solution.

On 11/11/2017 at 7:41 PM, mercer said:

My friend picked up his first 4K camera the other day, the E-M10 Mark iii and even with its measley 4 stops of IBIS, I found it better than the GX85’s. And the color was fantastic... so organic. The E-M1 Mark II has 5.5 stops, so that camera will probably have IBIS as good, or better than the advertised 6.5 of the G9. Olympus IBIS is pure insanity. I saw a video from it and it looked like steadicam footage even while walking.

Yeah, debating two EM-10iii to replace my GX80s as I want better EVF and the Olympus colour which I prefer.  I was about to pull the trigger on the GH5, but the size puts me off a bit.  I might wait for the replacement GX camera to see what Panasonic offers.  I'm in no rush and don't have any projects on but have been contemplating selling all my lenses and going with the new Olympus 17.5/1.2 and 42.5/1.2 lenses and the 12-100/4 for outdoor run-and-gun.  Simple hybrid solution.

[m0fe]

"I also think the G9 paves the way to a $3000 full frame camera system from Panasonic in the future" Panasonic have a big announcement scheduled for December maybe they will blow us all away with a larger sensor camera. 

My heart want it but my brain says "don't be stupid" and in the same breath "it would make sense" at some point Panasonic will need / want to move to larger sensors OR have a line of cameras with larger sensors 

[mercer]

On 11/18/2017 at 2:03 PM, sgreszcz said:

Yeah, debating two EM-10iii to replace my GX80s as I want better EVF and the Olympus colour which I prefer.  I was about to pull the trigger on the GH5, but the size puts me off a bit.  I might wait for the replacement GX camera to see what Panasonic offers.  I'm in no rush and don't have any projects on but have been contemplating selling all my lenses and going with the new Olympus 17.5/1.2 and 42.5/1.2 lenses and the 12-100/4 for outdoor run-and-gun.  Simple hybrid solution.

Yeah, debating two EM-10iii to replace my GX80s as I want better EVF and the Olympus colour which I prefer.  I was about to pull the trigger on the GH5, but the size puts me off a bit.  I might wait for the replacement GX camera to see what Panasonic offers.  I'm in no rush and don't have any projects on but have been contemplating selling all my lenses and going with the new Olympus 17.5/1.2 and 42.5/1.2 lenses and the 12-100/4 for outdoor run-and-gun.  Simple hybrid solution.

I did get a chance to mess around with his E-M10iii and there are a few quirks that are kinda silly. For instance, you have to go into the menu to change WB, the meter doesn’t show up on the screen in Video mode unless you hit the ISO button and then it will only be on screen until you’ve set ISO or dismiss the screen. Also the focus peaking is amazing but you have to keep pushing the button to enable it.

The Muted Profile is really nice. I’d say the IBIS is better than GX85’s and the 17mm f/1.8 Olympus lens is awesome... it is so tiny and the manual clutch works great.

[sgreszcz]

On 22/11/2017 at 3:36 PM, mercer said:

I did get a chance to mess around with his E-M10iii and there are a few quirks that are kinda silly. For instance, you have to go into the menu to change WB, the meter doesn’t show up on the screen in Video mode unless you hit the ISO button and then it will only be on screen until you’ve set ISO or dismiss the screen. Also the focus peaking is amazing but you have to keep pushing the button to enable it.

The Muted Profile is really nice. I’d say the IBIS is better than GX85’s and the 17mm f/1.8 Olympus lens is awesome... it is so tiny and the manual clutch works great.

Thanks for the feedback!  I don't remember those quirks or the peaking working like that when I had the E-M5ii - I thought it kicked in automatically when focusing.  The weak EVF and the wobbly GX80 IBIS is why I'm making a move.  I prefer the size of the GX80 and E-M10iii to the GH5 or G9 however I have a documentary to finish (winter sports / olympics related) and want to upgrade my camera for that.

I did have the O17/f1.8, and loved that lens.  I'm using the P15/1.7 and find it quite good too for manual focusing and the aperture ring.

[jonpais]

So you've already consented to shrinking the LCD display and dropping resolution 55%; reducing battery life; cutting back on video resolution; and eliminating 400Mbps: but even if I shot 50% photo/50% video, the one thing I could never ever live without is HLG - the most overlooked and single most significant update the GH5 has received.

[Fredrik Lyhne]

On 30.11.2017 at 7:54 PM, jonpais said:

 HLG - the most overlooked and single most significant update the GH5 has received.

I actually has a pre-order for this camera cus I really wanted a better stills oriented m43 camera. But since it doesn't come with HLG or rec709 I think I'll pass for now. As a b-cam to my GH5 for videos it doesn't offer enough improvements over the G85. I'll wait and see what the GH5s has to offer or maybe get another GH5 at some point. HLG is just too awesome!

[leeys]

Over time I've warmed up a bit to this; I'm a 9:1 stills:video person, so this might be a nice upgrade from the GH3. I hope on the video side there's more than just an upgrade to 4K from the GH3; would like a few more features (especially with focusing) in the mix.

[Marc Ramirez]

I've been using an em5 II for video of sports and shoot primarily in 1080p 60fps at a shutter around 1/120 or 1/60. I like having the ability to slow down 2x  cleanly. The g9 seems like a great upgrade considering it can do 4k 60fps. Since that data stream is so large, it is in 8bit format...even for the gh5, so when people say gh5 it's much better because it does 60p and 10 bit, am I right that it doesn't do both of those simultaneously in camera? If that is the case, I don't see a big reason for someone shooting sports or at 4k 60p to pick the gh5 over the g9. Especially considering usb charging, larger evf, top LCD, and improved stabilization.