“The Middle Path”: A Lumix GH5s Short

[Emanuel]

56 minutes ago, anonim said:

I'm often in the same situation. But, what I've found is that, exactly, GH5 with full open Voigtlanders at ISO 1600 gathered more light than exists for  the human eye - and, the most important, because of m43 DOF, f1.0 in fact don't result in THAT shallow DOF (it is near f2 at full frame measure). In fact, it seems to me that non m43 users don't realise how good and usefully advanced are pro m43 primes wide open in lowlight situations.

To sum up: having fully clean Iso 3200-6400 image from GH5s is dream come true - but not something that in the 95% of real life situation couldn't be achieved by fast primes. But, lacking of Ibis is for me hardly compensable for far more situations.

Keep in  mind that situations when we need to up ISO level to the 12800, even 6400, are in reality such that their color informations are extremely poor.

Indeed. Same scope here. But beyond the eye means the whole idea behind the (concept of) art (itself), isn't it?

People here seem love natural and all that stuff. There isn't such thing as undeniable truth when we talk about arts, correct? ;-)

Nature is not all that beauty. And if it is, there's no such beauty like nature of art when reaches that pattern. 

[anonim]

6 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Indeed. Same scope here. But beyond the eye means the whole idea behind the (concept of) art (itself), isn't it?

Uh, well... very deep question, touching whole Existence - so, maybe idea for GH5E!

[Emanuel]

Just now, anonim said:

Uh, well... very deep question, touching whole Existence - so, maybe idea for GH5E!

No need. Reason why GH5s is actually the utmost 4K camera for its price. Like MGM's lion... bigger than life ;-)

[IronFilm]

 

[Mmmbeats]

1 hour ago, anonim said:

I'm often in the same situation. But, what I've found is that, exactly, GH5 with full open Voigtlanders at ISO 1600 gathered more light than exists for  the human eye - and, the most important, because of m43 DOF, f1.0 in fact don't result in THAT shallow DOF (it is near f2 at full frame measure). In fact, it seems to me that non m43 users don't realise how good and usefully advanced are pro m43 primes wide open in lowlight situations.

To sum up: having fully clean Iso 3200-6400 image from GH5s is dream come true - but not something that in the 95% of real life situation couldn't be achieved by fast primes. But, lacking of Ibis is for me hardly compensable for far more situations.

Keep in  mind that situations when we need to up ISO level to the 12800, even 6400, are in reality such that their color informations are extremely poor.

It's all quite subjective, of course.  My own experience is that the wide open apertures are still at most distances 'shallow'.  I often film two people talking, and only one is in focus.  Not only is the viewers gaze drawn away from the, sometimes telling, reaction of the listening figure, but many of the nuances of the interaction are lost in the blur, even if it is slight.

Similarly when there is a speaker on stage as part of a panel and I'm picking up shots from the side of the stage (sometimes these events are set up in halls without stage lighting rigs).  I get a nice crisp shot of the speaker, but often wish I could simultaneously bring in the facial reactions of the other panellists.

It's all about choices really.  Of course the ability to isolate the subject is also important, and I think a lot of 'full frame' enthusiasts would be amazed at how good these GH series cameras are at doing that with shallow DoF when required.

It's going to be the difference in limited light situations between having one option - 'shallow' (even if you want to label it 'not THAT shallow'), and having a range of depth of field options available to help direct your audience's experience.

[Emanuel]

12 hours ago, Matt Holder said:

(...) without exposing to the left.

Here's something interesting on topic:

https://prolost.com/blog/2008/3/2/exposing-to-the-left-vs-exposing-to-the-right.html

https://digital-photography-school.com/exposing-to-the-right/

And from the forum:

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/25790-what-about-underexpose-a-tad-bit/

35 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

 

So that one about the Sony sensor was plain BS... LOL Intriguing r(h)umor! Thanks David for that link! :-)

[anonim]

22 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

It's going to be the difference in limited light situations between having one option - 'shallow' (even if you want to label it 'not THAT shallow'), and having a range of depth of field options available to help direct your audience's experience.

Of course, it is without discussion. As also that in your quoted spontaneous "museum", or some similar situation, you/we have no easy solution with bringing clumsy gimbal or tripod for discreet shots. That's why I simply wrote that we have two choice and decision. I think that with speed lenses we can more easily (and in more situations) so-so compensate great GH5s lowlight performance than, contrary, compensate lack of ibis.

Panasonic's fame lays on concept of complete indie solution - so GH5s is, I think, just medium step - and as such too expensive - toward higher level of this strategy. At this moment, in spite of the lowlight achievement, it seems to me that GH5 is still more complete choice - and more faithful to established (and loved) GH fundamental concept.

[Emanuel]

They are very distinct cameras to my eyes.

Very true though. GH5 is easier to mimic the sister under certain circumstances.

Nonetheless...

go figure for street cinematography or landscape by night...

...here's the other side instead:

 

[Mmmbeats]

12 minutes ago, anonim said:

Of course, it is without discussion. As also that in your quoted spontaneous "museum", or some similar situation, you/we have no easy solution with bringing clumsy gimbal or tripod for discreet shots. That's why I simply wrote that we have two choice and decision. I think that with speed lenses we can more easily (and in more situations) so-so compensate great GH5s lowlight performance than, contrary, compensate lack of ibis.

Panasonic's fame lays on concept of complete indie solution - so GH5s is, I think, just medium step - and as such too expensive - toward higher level of this strategy. At this moment, in spite of the lowlight achievement, it seems to me that GH5 is still more complete choice - and more faithful to established (and loved) GH fundamental concept.

Yes, the loss of IBIS is a big blow.  *sigh*  If we had started with a camera with low-light capability but no IBIS, and moved to the original GH5, we would be complaining about the loss of sensitivity!  The truth is that both cameras are each missing a great feature.

I find a monopod the best solution for fast-moving situations, but they don't offer perfect stabilisation, so it's a compromise.

I'm almost certainly going to get the GH5s - it's basically the answer to my biggest area of need.  I'd like to know people's thoughts about the following options:

1) a GX80 (GX85) as a B-cam, and for grab-and-go IBIS action.

2) a GH5 as a tandem cam (using the GH5s when the occasion requires, GH5 as an alternative A-cam and backup).  Would this be a ridiculous investment, given that it takes you close to the price of a full cinema camera?

[anonim]

21 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

 I'd like to know people's thoughts about the following options:

Well, that of course depends of your pocket deepness. If you can afford, get them both... compare and share your impressions with rest of us. GX80 has nice image but very toyish functionality for longer and serious usage (size, screen, buttons, evf etc).

What I may add, it is that for me seems that goes on unnoticed fact that Panasonic consumer sector for a long time had no any new sub model... it seems as they silently abandon lower market and are focusing completely on top models (variations of mobile phones have in every circle more and more stronger capability and influence). What does it mean for your dilemma - I think that life and comparative practic usability circle of GH5s easy could not be too long, depending of sale rate and very sharp competition (Sony, Fuji, anounced mirrorless Nikon etc).

I have no any suspect that GH6 is already born and greatly at the road of secret maturation with lowlight+ibis integrated combination...

[Emanuel]

4 minutes ago, anonim said:

I have no any suspect that GH6 is already born and greatly at the road of secret maturation with lowlight+ibis integrated combination...

GH6s ;-)

[Chrad]

I doubt we'll see a GH6s for two years. 

GX95 this year, GH6 and G10 year after, GH6s year after that.

I bet GH5s will be as nice paired with the GH6 as with the GH5. I think it will fill its niche for a good while to come.

[jonpais]

@IronFilm According to extrashot, when using TC, every time the camera goes to sleep, you lose 9 frames. Which kind of makes this camera worthless for synching up a mulit-cam shoot. Unless Panasonic issues a firmware update. Or do you think it's still worthwhile?

source

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

I find a monopod the best solution for fast-moving situations, but they don't offer perfect stabilisation, so it's a compromise.

I do love my monopod for fast paced event shooting! As heck,  I do not own any  cameras with IBIS! :-o

9 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

1) a GX80 (GX85) as a B-cam, and for grab-and-go IBIS action.

Get a G80 instead, just is a step up that is worth it. Have that as your IBIS camera for low budget / event shoots. As likely they won't need the 10bit codec anyway for heavy post demands. 

Then get a GH5S for your relatively "higher" end work. 

And either camera can be the B cam to your other one! 

When doing events your GH5S is your B Cam on a locked off tripod while you grab shots on your GH5S. 
On films your GH5S is A cam but your B cam is the G80 just to grab a few extra bonus angles as well. 

 

9 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

2) a GH5 as a tandem cam (using the GH5s when the occasion requires, GH5 as an alternative A-cam and backup).  Would this be a ridiculous investment, given that it takes you close to the price of a full cinema camera?

GH5S + GX85 + GH5

Yeah... starting to think just getting an EVA1 could be better! 

8 hours ago, anonim said:

What I may add, it is that for me seems that goes on unnoticed fact that Panasonic consumer sector for a long time had no any new sub model... it seems as they silently abandon lower market and are focusing completely on top models (variations of mobile phones have in every circle more and more stronger capability and influence). What does it mean for your dilemma - I think that life and comparative practic usability circle of GH5s easy could not be too long, depending of sale rate and very sharp competition (Sony, Fuji, anounced mirrorless Nikon etc).

Patience! I am certain in 2018 we will see a successor to the G80 or GX80

 

7 hours ago, Chrad said:

GX95 this year, GH6 and G10 year after, GH6s year after that.

 

With luck we'll see the GH6 come out late this year in 2018, other early-mid 2019 is my bet. 

Hopefully a G90 comes out mid/late this year as well. 

[Chrad]

25 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

With luck we'll see the GH6 come out late this year in 2018, other early-mid 2019 is my bet. 

I can't see it out this year. They released the GH5s just now and updated the GH5 four months ago. It's too soon for a new GH, with two currently supported models being pushed. 
I think GH models will stick to a two year average cycle.

[IronFilm]

 

39 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@IronFilm According to extrashot, when using TC, every time the camera goes to sleep, you lose 9 frames. Which kind of makes this camera worthless for synching up a mulit-cam shoot. Unless Panasonic issues a firmware update. Or do you think it's still worthwhile?

source

Was shocked myself when I saw that yesterday, I posted this comment immediately on the video:
 

Quote

@13:25 WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT????????????? That is PURE MADNESS!! The camera going to sleep & loses TC?? OMG, that is truly shocking news. Surely the GH5S should be jammed to the input? Please please tell me it only loses sync when it is relying upon its own internal TC! As that would be sad, but not at all a deal breaker. But if can't stay jammed to a box attached to it, then you have to seriously question why Panasonic even bothered? As that is the most stupid ever flaw of the GH5S.

This is the problem when you have non-sound people reviewing sound features, the odds are very high that they made a complete screw up in their assessment. Or at least that is what I am HOPING happened!!

 

 

14 minutes ago, Chrad said:

I can't see it out this year. They released the GH5s just now and updated the GH5 four months ago. It's too soon for a new GH, with two currently supported models being pushed. 
I think GH models will stick to a two year average cycle.

The GH5 was announced late 2016. For it to be announced late 2018 would be following the rough 2 yr plan. 
So I'd easily give it 50/50 odds to come out late this year or early-mid next year. 

And yeah, GH5S will have at least a two year cycle too. (it is a new series the "S" variant, so too tricky to say what they might do in the future. It might be they only offer a "S" variant in alternating GH updates? Because the "S" variant is a much smaller niche. So GH6 might skip it, then the GH7 gets a GH7S? Who knows! )

[jonpais]

@IronFilm Probably can be addressed in FW, otherwise a fatal flaw for a production camera....

[IronFilm]

6 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@IronFilm Probably can be addressed in FW, otherwise a fatal flaw for a production camera....

My bet is it is a reviewer mistake. Just seems far too odd otherwise. 

But yes, IF true then hopefully their first firmware update should keep it constantly jammed to the source!

It isn't the absolute end of the world however if I come across a camera that does this. As I'd hook up my Timecode Systems :wave to the GH5S, then jam an Ultrasync ONE to my F4 which receives TC on the :blink network. Thus both my recorder and camera remain in perfect sync! Too easy ;-)

[jonpais]

I shoot people. That's all I've ever shot, all I ever will shoot. But there's precious little out there showing how the GH5s renders skin tones. Presumably, most narrative, documentary, wedding, corporate and event filmmakers would also like to know - how good are the skin tones are with the new sensor. Actually, since I'm the first and only one asking, apparently nobody gives a rat's ass.  I'm already quite satisfied with how the GH5 does in this regard, but I want to see how it compares to the GH5s at ISO 400, 800. 

[DBounce]

54 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@IronFilm According to extrashot, when using TC, every time the camera goes to sleep, you lose 9 frames. Which kind of makes this camera worthless for synching up a mulit-cam shoot. Unless Panasonic issues a firmware update. Or do you think it's still worthwhile?

source

Well if it is always 9 frames that would be pretty easy to code around.