“The Middle Path”: A Lumix GH5s Short

[ajay]

Well...based on what I stated and how Luke responded, I'd say this camera with better dynamic range and highlight roll-off is what it is all about. Maybe Raw?

This plays big for me personally. I do a combination of wildlife and promotional video work and I have been contemplating a cinema-style camera for better quality footage. (I presently shoot with the GH5 and Canon 1DX Mark II.) My problem is that teaming a 600mm lens with a cinema camera is a lesson in futility. The only cameras that I have considered for this is a RED or Canon camera due to the ergonomics. Now that I have a clue as to what Panasonic may announce, I am more than excited about this new camera. I much prefer a smaller camera body over the cinema style camera for shooting wildlife. I presently use the GH5 with my Canon 600mm lens with a Metabones adapter. It works great and is easy to follow moving subjects such as eagles-in-flight. (I rely on the viewfinder to follow quick moving subjects. Something the EVA-1 sorely does not have nor does my Canon 1DX Mark II and adding a viewfinder makes the combination awkward.)

The problem is that it is difficult getting the shot due to so-so highlight rolloff. (Yes, I use V-Log.) A great example of where highlight roll-off comes into play is with Bald Eagles. You really need extra dynamic range and the ability to post-process the footage to bring down the white head and bring up the black feathers. Tough sledding sort-of-speak.

I was very close to purchasing the C200, but I will wait now to see what the new camera brings. I am stoked!
 

[Georgios]

1 hour ago, Julien416 said:

@Neumann Films just told us that he had probably used @Sage GH5 alexa lut. It obviously wouldn't make any sense to use it with another sensor I guess. Or a damn close one maybe.

 

No..he mentioned Adobe’s Alexa lut

[Sage]

14 minutes ago, Georgios said:

No..he mentioned Adobe’s Alexa lut

That's right, it's just the LogC to 709 (contrast/sat)

[mercer]

The rumored pricing is the issue and one of the biggest factors in figuring out what may be included in the new GH5.

All rumors state $2499... well you’re not getting a S35mm sensor GH5 for that price. It would piss off too many current owners and it would eliminate too many of their m4/3 lenses, unless they have decided to go EF... but that also would piss off current m4/3 lens owners heavily invested in the system. I doubt it’s Raw for some of the same reasons.

It’s probably something as simple as full VLog for better DR and a better codec or more efficient codec for the higher bitrate modes. 

I still think it will be available as a new body for $2499 or a paid firmware upgrade for existing GH5 owners.

[MurtlandPhoto]

The more it's discussed the more I think that it will be both a new body and a paid firmware update for existing owners. The timing is just too wrong for a new body with massive hardware updates. It makes more sense for it to have software updates with maybe a little bonus hardware. I like the idea of full V-Log; something has always been a little bit off about V-LogL. Raw would be welcomed, but I doubt its coming. 

One theory I have is using the dual card slots in tandem for higher bitrates. The 400 Mbps update is nice, but how about 800 Mbps or more using both slots? Is this possible?

[DBounce]

Honestly, from what I have seen from the frame grab, save for resolution it looks pretty dam good. I dare say better than my GH5, better than my 1DXMkII, Sony A7RII. It looks well balanced. Highlights are within check, all the shadows are clean. It’s a marked improvement.

DOF, well, that is not bad, but I can get pretty ridiculous DOF with an anamorphic on the GH5 using diopters. And really, most of the time I am not shooting wide open as doing so in video presents a host of issues when trying to hold focus. I am not sure what voodoo is going on with this new camera... talk of a 35mm sensor is intriguing, but I doubt they would have gone that route. Largely because if they did, I’m suspecting that this camera’s performance would surpass that of the EVA 1 in low-light. I know that the EVA 1 is in stock at BH and no one seems in a hurry to pick one up. I myself toyed with the idea, but after seeing the initial footage decided it would be wise to hold back. Who knows,... maybe Panasonic is cutting their losses with the EVA 1 by cannibalizing the tech and creating a Frankin GH5x monster camera. If that is the case, take my money :-D

[ajay]

I believe it's a new camera only. Panasonic is following Sony's footsteps. We have the G9 to compete with Sony's A9 and the new camera if it is called GH5S is to compete with Sony's A7S series. I'd be really surprised if there is a firmware upgrade for the GH5. I also believe the GH5S will have a completely different sensor especially if it is to perform as an excellent low-light camera. The footage in Luke's VLOG from November clearly shows CLEAN low light footage. With the M43 format, the only way to get CLEAN low light video would be with a less megapixel sensor...larger pixels.

[DBounce]

27 minutes ago, mercer said:

The rumored pricing is the issue and one of the biggest factors in figuring out what may be included in the new GH5.

All rumors state $2499... well you’re not getting a S35mm sensor GH5 for that price. It would piss off too many current owners and it would eliminate too many of their m4/3 lenses, unless they have decided to go EF... but that also would piss off current m4/3 lens owners heavily invested in the system. I doubt it’s Raw for some of the same reasons.

It’s probably something as simple as full VLog for better DR and a better codec or more efficient codec for the higher bitrate modes. 

I still think it will be available as a new body for $2499 or a paid firmware upgrade for existing GH5 owners.

I’m not sure why a GH5 owner should be pissed off if a new model comes out that uses a S35 sensor? Does not the JVC's GY-LS300 sport a S35 sensor and have a M43 mount? If they can crack this nut, cannot Panasonic?

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, DBounce said:

I’m not sure why a GH5 owner should be pissed off if a new model comes out that uses a S35 sensor? Does not the JVC's GY-LS300 sport a S35 sensor and have a M43 mount? If they can crack this nut, cannot Panasonic?

Well if you bought a GH5 last week for $1999, and in 3 weeks a $2499 S35mm sensor version was announced, would you be a little annoyed?

And I believe the LS300 works by some sort of zoom scanning, so although it has a micro 4/3 mount, only lenses that cover S35mm will work in S35mm mode. If you are using a native micro4/3 lens that doesn’t cover S35mm, then you have to “zoom” in so you’re not in S35mm mode any longer and you will have a crop factor. Now I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that’s how it works.

[MurtlandPhoto]

1 minute ago, ajay said:

I believe it's a new camera only. Panasonic is following Sony's footsteps. We have the G9 to compete with Sony's A9 and the new camera if it is called GH5S is to compete with Sony's A7S series.

 

 With the M43 format, the only way to get CLEAN low light video would be with a less megapixel sensor...larger pixels.

I think it might be a misstep for Panasonic to create the three separate lines in this manner. To me it screams being a reactionary move instead of well-thought marketing strategy. Say this new camera will be a heavily video-centric model, the G9 is the heavily photo-centric one, and the GH5 is the hybrid. The problem is that throughout its marketing cycle, the GH5 was presented as a video camera first and foremost, with some talk about the stills features. Remember, the first tease of info about the camera was solely video based: 10 bit 4:2:, 4K60p, and 1080p180. Even the in-person interviews with Matt Frazier and Sean were so heavily leaning on video that stills were barely even brought up. If Panasonic had this 3 camera plan all along, the reps surely would have emphasized the *hybrid* designation more (even if they weren't going to announce other cameras for some months). 

 

It seems disrespectful to consumers of the GH5 for Panasonic to release a substantial updated model so shortly after release. Especially, if this was on their roadmap all along. This would be unlike Panasonic. Therefore I think a likely scenario is an updated model with a few new bells and whistles, but with the bulk of features coming from software. Panasonic will offer these software upgrades to GH5 owners at a cost ~$500.

 

Less megapixels is certainly not the only way to increase ISO performance. The GH5 is substantially better than the GH1 in low light and it has far more megapixels. Processing power, heat dissipation, and other factors also have a role in ISO performance. The fact that Luke Neumann is posting high resolution anamorphic frame grabs points to the same or a variant of the GH5 sensor.

[mechanicalEYE]

20 minutes ago, mercer said:

Well if you bought a GH5 last week for $1999, and in 3 weeks a $2499 S35mm sensor version was announced, would you be a little annoyed?

If your GH5 camera that you purchased last week is working as advertised, you shouldn't be annoyed or pissed.  If S35 sensor was what you were really after you probably shouldn't have purchased a GH5 last week.  Just playing along, but honestly... If your new/ish camera is working as advertised, you should love using your new camera, I mean you've only had it a week.

[ajay]

I don't think it has to do with anything as far as higher resolution and anamorphic framing. It has to do with better dynamic range, highlight rolloff and low-light performance. What if the camera is $1,000 more? It's pure speculation at this point as to its price. If I were a GH5 user, I wouldn't be pissed at all. It's a different, more expensive camera that offers features found in cinematic cameras. I'd definitely be a buyer and a very happy camper.

 

[Jonesy Jones]

So here, Luke says he knows nothing about RAW coming to the GH5. Just a couple pages ago Luke plainly says he does not like DNG and prefers Prores or codecs like whats in the GH5 currently. What processing or cards would be necessary to even add RAW? If you watch Luke's bts vlog on youtube you'll never see an external recorder, so that's not it. If this new cam has RAW, Luke is being a horrible ambassador. Guys, is it reasonable to assume the new cam does NOT have RAW capabilities? Can we stop that talk?

We know that there is a new camera, and we can probably assume it is going to cost $2500 (see my long post here at Nov 23). 

Personally, I'm confident the new cam will be based on the same sensor or a new version of the same sensor, or a new sensor with same resolution specs. Here is my reasoning. There could also be a firmware upgrade for current GH5 owners, heck, maybe even some sort of upgrade path for current GH5 owners, but either of those things is purely speculation.

If I'm right about the sensor, then there is no EVA1 sensor in this camera, or another s35 sensor. A bigger sensor, in my opinion, would be a much bigger announcement and basically a whole new product line. It would be odd for Luke to start that discussion in an old GH5 thread. Guys, can assume the new feature is not sensor sized based?

If so, then Luke's recent image post is not regarding larger sensor, DOF or RAW. That leaves us with the image itself. 

If you read Luke's post here, I think Luke cryptically suggested (pay attention to the italics) that this camera will be better in low light. Is this also a hint to the infamous dual ISO?

Similarly, Luke here used italics to possibly hint that there is something regarding the "shoulders". He clearly stated he was shooting at T1.9. Even on m43 with that much light at T1.9, you're going to get clipping on a white coat like the actor is wearing. Now, there is something on the end of the lens. It could be ND? That would remedy the clipping. Regardless, I have consistently noticed superb exposure in high DR situations. Like with this image for instance.

Also, all the images he's posted look so rich and clean compared to my GH5 images. I obviously can't say for certain, but something about the images themselves seem improved. Luke started a new vlog right at the beginning of all this called "The BEST Vlog EVER." Notice his use of capitals. Is this a clue that this cam has an improved Vlog codec?

Lastly, the screen grab I posted and @mechanicalEYE re-posted here clearly has a different auto-focus button set up. Even though the Casey Neistat photos are suspect, I think they are extremely compelling. Luke has also mentioned that different ambassadors highlight different features. I think there is improved autofocus with this cam. 

So... I think the following is a reasonable conclusion at this point. 

There is a new camera. It will cost $2500 (possible firmware update for current GH5 owners). It will have improved low light, DR, vlog, and autofocus, with perhaps some other video centric features. 

There is not RAW, or a bigger or completely different sensor. 

[MurtlandPhoto]

1 minute ago, mechanicalEYE said:

If your GH5 camera that you purchased last week is working as advertised, you shouldn't be annoyed or pissed.  If S35 sensor was what you were really after you probably shouldnt have purchased a GH5 last week.  Just playing along, but honestly... If your new/ish camera is working as advertised, you shouldn't be pissed.  

A S35 sensor would a BIG upgrade to the GH line. It's something that I don't think Panasonic would do as <1 year upgrade to their GH5. They've known what the market wants. If a S35 sensor in a GH camera was at all something they were thinking of doing, they would have delayed the GH5's release until they had it ready or would have waited for the GH6. I wouldn't be upset if I were wrong though

[DBounce]

13 minutes ago, mercer said:

Well if you bought a GH5 last week for $1999, and in 3 weeks a $2499 S35mm sensor version was announced, would you be a little annoyed?

And I believe the LS300 works by some sort of zoom scanning, so although it has a micro 4/3 mount, only lenses that cover S35mm will work in S35mm mode. If you are using a native micro4/3 lens that doesn’t cover S35mm, then you have to “zoom” in so you’re not in S35mm mode any longer and you will have a crop factor. Now I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that’s how it works.

I would not be annoyed at all. I would just preorder the new camera and either sell the GH5 or keep it as a B-cam.  The reason I would not be annoyed is because I purchased the GH5 fully knowing it was not perfect. I expected to upgrade it. The funny thing is I didn’t want to have to wait 3 years to do so. I have had many Sony cameras and have become accustomed to frequent updates to the model line. Also, I upgrade my phones every 6 months or so. I seldom keep a car for more than 2 years. So for me upgrading is always expected. And frankly, if it is a major upgrade, then the sooner the better. What do you think I would do if the next Sony camera blows away the GH5? Well I can tell you,  I will upgrade to the Sony. I am not married to any particular brand/model line. 

We live in a disposable society. Today’s new is old before it’s even released. The only part of my kit that does not update regularly are my lenses. But lord knows, I do certainly add to that collection regularly :-) 

 

I do not understand all the resistance to this camera. DON’T YOU WANT A BETTER CAMERA? I do. I am eager to get my hands on this bad boy. Would you rather have to wait 4-5 years for it? I have to admit, I just don’t understand this resistance.

[mercer]

@DBounce it’s not about resistance, it’s about common sense... Panasonic is not going to release a S35mm version of the GH5, this soon, for only $500 more. A GH5 with all of the improvements you mentioned is a 4 thousand dollar camera. Manufacturers can only low ball pricing so much... unless Panasonic is throwing a Hail Mary because their consumer camera division isn’t doing well. I highly doubt that is happening.

[AaronChicago]

Looking fwd to seeing what's going on here. I'm 99% happy with the GH5. The only other thing I could wish for would be an extra stop of DR.

[mercer]

To add, I have no skin in this game other than curiosity. The only thing that would make me even consider a new camera at this point would be Raw or ProRes and even then I’m still probably going to stick with my 5D3.

Also, since Luke released his alien pioneer movie, I forget what it’s called, I haven’t seen one GH5 video that looks better, so even a minor update could seem impressive with Luke’s skill set.

[DBounce]

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

A GH5 with all of the improvements you mentioned is a 4 thousand dollar camera. Manufacturers can only low ball pricing so much... unless Panasonic is throwing a Hail Mary because their consumer camera division isn’t doing well. I highly doubt that is happening.

@mercer If this is true, tell me how JVC is managing to sell the GY-LS300 for only $2,495? Clearly it can be done. But I suspect many here wish it to cost more. It blows my mind as to why this would be. Because it seems the people that want it to cost more are those without the pocket to purchase it at the $3k-4K mark. For myself beyond $4k other options may seem more interesting. But for those without the pocket, why the desire to have it be released for more than the speculated $2.5k? 

Regardless of what this puppy does. If DJI or whoever, puts out a refined OSMO like camera with similar or better performance I’ll be upgrading yet again. I think that form factor is where the future is.

[Don Kotlos]

Let's be realistic here, there is no way GH5s will have a S35 sensor. I can't think of any native m4/3 mount lenses that cover S35. JVC could pull that off because they have no lenses anyways, so by using a S35 users could adapt most of their lenses.  

As far as price goes, the GH5 will still be an excellent choice for half the price of the new GH5s. Even now you will be lucky to get $1500 for your GH5, and when the new one is announced I doubt it would be higher than $1300. 

I also can't see them improving the lowlight/DR much if they keep the same sensor. Not enough to justify an upgrade anyways.

In any case, I bet Luke is having a great time reading our halfass analysis.