Anyone with F3 and Video Assist? Need help setting it up.

[redimp]

I've recently bought BMVA and F3 and they arrived today. I'm trying to set them up to work via single 3G SDI port (SDI A on the camera body). I've managed to get 60p in 422, but can't manage to get 24p 444.

I went into System menu and changed the setting from 59.94i to 23.98p.

Then, in Video Set, changed output to 23.98PsF.

In Dual-link ang Gamma, if I'm setting output to 1.5 YpBpr 422 I get the image, but as soon as I go to 1.5G RGB444 or any 3G setting – I get no image at all.

 

Can anyone suggest what setting to use to get the 444 24p out of this setup?

 

[Dogtown]

Be sure to use one of the A or B top BNC outputs for the RGB 444 I don't think it comes out of the SDI BNC on the side of the F3.

[PannySVHS]

Hallo, question is, if BM Assist offers 444. Odyssey 7 or 7+ might offer that. Not sure about the BM. cheers

[CineAlta]

The video assist won't accept 4;4;4.  It will probably give you a green tinted image if you send 4;4;4.    for use with the video assist, set the f3's sdi out S-Log 4;2;2  Use SDI output A, not the 'Video Out' bnc connector.  If you're set to 24p you should be sending 24p out of the sdi.  the BM video assists seem to sometimes detect the wrong frame rate - on the A7 series they see a 25, 24 and 30p signal as 59.98, but when imported into the timeline you'll see the correct framerate.  

It's worth setting the camera to Cine EI mode since it locks you at 800iso and you get the most from the sensor.  correctly exposed you can pull or push the 4;2;2 footage a lot before it breaks up.  Amazing camera.  ps.  watch out for the 'shutter on/off' switch down near the bottom left in front of the flip out screen.  Set to 'off' gives you 360degree and changing shutter angle won't change anything.  catches you out sometimes.

 

[IronFilm]

On 11/23/2017 at 3:02 PM, CineAlta said:

The video assist won't accept 4;4;4.  It will probably give you a green tinted image if you send 4;4;4.    for use with the video assist, set the f3's sdi out S-Log 4;2;2  Use SDI output A, not the 'Video Out' bnc connector.  If you're set to 24p you should be sending 24p out of the sdi.  the BM video assists seem to sometimes detect the wrong frame rate - on the A7 series they see a 25, 24 and 30p signal as 59.98, but when imported into the timeline you'll see the correct framerate.  

It's worth setting the camera to Cine EI mode since it locks you at 800iso and you get the most from the sensor.  correctly exposed you can pull or push the 4;2;2 footage a lot before it breaks up.  Amazing camera.  ps.  watch out for the 'shutter on/off' switch down near the bottom left in front of the flip out screen.  Set to 'off' gives you 360degree and changing shutter angle won't change anything.  catches you out sometimes.

 

 

CineAlta, your username checks out! ;-)

[redimp]

On November 23, 2017 at 4:02 AM, CineAlta said:

The video assist won't accept 4;4;4

That's right, I fell victim to wishful thinking and choice fatigue

I've read somewhere on reduser that BMVA accepts 60p via 3g sdi, instead of two 1.5G, and automatically assumed it's going to be the same with 444. You're correct, the video does have a green tint to it, so it's going to be 422 for me. I made my peace with it

Regarding that shutter switch on the body – I am struggling to understand why would they do that. All the menus are also made to make you suffer.

 

Quick question – if shooting 24p and then switching to 60 – I have to go to menu-others-system and set the output to 59.98i and then set the Dual link and Gamma to 3G 422. And to go back to 24p I have to go to same menus and switch both settings back. Is there a way to just save these presets somehow? It's such a tedious process it makes me wanna cry.

 

[IronFilm]

I don't bother really with 60fps, but I think hitting the S&Q button will help speed that up for you?

[redimp]

11 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I don't bother really with 60fps, but I think hitting the S&Q button will help speed that up for you?

No, it only outputs 60i that way.

[BenEricson]

On 11/22/2017 at 6:02 PM, CineAlta said:

 

On 11/24/2017 at 3:06 AM, IronFilm said:

 

CineAlta, your username checks out! ;-)

 use with the video assist, set the f3's sdi out S-Log 4;2;2  Use SDI output A, not the 'Video Out' bnc connector.

Just an FYI, the color you get from setting the camera to video out / s-log PP is much more accurate colorwise than locking the camera to S-Log out with no profile. 

The difference is very obvious in the greens. It is a lot closer to the FS7 in a bad way. A member on DVX User tipped me off to this. Clearly this is a flaw because the two profiles shouldn't be different. 

I agree, the menu situation is very annoying on the f3. 

I have owned the F3/Black Magic Recorder for a while now and have been extremely satisfied with the images. 

 

 

[redimp]

14 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Just an FYI, the color you get from setting the camera to video out / s-log PP is much more accurate colorwise than locking the camera to S-Log out with no profile.

This is interesting, will have to test myself though to see whether I prefer the S-log mode or S-log PP, but I REALLY appreciate the tip, thanks!

[IronFilm]

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 5:51 AM, BenEricson said:

Just an FYI, the color you get from setting the camera to video out / s-log PP is much more accurate colorwise than locking the camera to S-Log out with no profile. 

The difference is very obvious in the greens. It is a lot closer to the FS7 in a bad way. A member on DVX User tipped me off to this. Clearly this is a flaw because the two profiles shouldn't be different. 

 

Interesting! I need to test this out.

[redimp]

Summoning the gurus back to this thread. @CineAlta @BenEricson @IronFilm @Dogtown

I have shot my first project on the F3 and BMVA combo. It has it's quirks, but I liked it, especially for the money.

I've shot the whole thing in S-log, and recorded to BMVA in Prores. Out of camera footage looks lovely, but when I try to grade it, I'm struggling more then I was with the footage from blackmagic cams I've owned.

I've talked to a colorist and they suggested I do a color space transform to translate Slog into Cineon or LogC and grade that using some film print emulation.

This is where I've stumbled upon problems. When I try to do color space transform, the footage appears to be NOT Slog, but Gamma 2.4. Colors appear to be not S Gamut, but Rec709.

So my question is – does the use of BMVA affect the output of F3? Is the footage being interpreted from Slog into Gamma 2.4 and "baked-in" the ProRes files?

What am I missing?

[CineAlta]

It may be worth going to the AbleCine website and going through their blog entries. If I recall they used to have a number of very nice F3 S-Log luts available as well as some good information relating to processing the original S-Log curve. S-Gamut was only when the F65 was released to coincide with S-Log2.

There are lots of S-Log2 luts around which will only need very fine adjustment if used on F3 footage. Throw some onto the footage and have a play. I expect they'll get you close.  

[sam]

23 minutes ago, CineAlta said:

S-Gamut was only when the F65 was released to coincide with S-Log2.

you mean F35 which has sgamut,  among others.   

OP: never used the bmva, but unless you baked in a custom lut (which Is not listed in its specs as possible) it would presumably record the signal you sent it..... you may need to tell your nle/grading software to interpret the prores as data or "full" instead of video levels though, for proper viewing/workflow. 

 

 

[BenEricson]

4 hours ago, redimp said:

Summoning the gurus back to this thread. @CineAlta @BenEricson @IronFilm @Dogtown

I have shot my first project on the F3 and BMVA combo. It has it's quirks, but I liked it, especially for the money.

I've shot the whole thing in S-log, and recorded to BMVA in Prores. Out of camera footage looks lovely, but when I try to grade it, I'm struggling more then I was with the footage from blackmagic cams I've owned.

I've talked to a colorist and they suggested I do a color space transform to translate Slog into Cineon or LogC and grade that using some film print emulation.

This is where I've stumbled upon problems. When I try to do color space transform, the footage appears to be NOT Slog, but Gamma 2.4. Colors appear to be not S Gamut, but Rec709.

So my question is – does the use of BMVA affect the output of F3? Is the footage being interpreted from Slog into Gamma 2.4 and "baked-in" the ProRes files?

What am I missing?

Can you post some frames? In my experience F3 is up there with the C300ii and the Red. I found it much easier to work with than FS7 or FS700.

[redimp]

15 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Can you post some frames? In my experience F3 is up there with the C300ii and the Red. I found it much easier to work with than FS7 or FS700.

The whole project is three locations, I've included one snippet of each in this folder https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hea92wpkq082gcp/AACjhU7POHwjvMgFmKSaifZRa?dl=0

[BenEricson]

On 3/7/2018 at 7:39 AM, redimp said:

The whole project is three locations, I've included one snippet of each in this folder https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hea92wpkq082gcp/AACjhU7POHwjvMgFmKSaifZRa?dl=0

Trying to grab the files but I am on hotel wifi. Can you post some TIFs? 

The preview files look like normal S-LOG files to me.

[BenEricson]

On 3/6/2018 at 11:29 AM, redimp said:

Summoning the gurus back to this thread. @CineAlta @BenEricson @IronFilm @Dogtown

I have shot my first project on the F3 and BMVA combo. It has it's quirks, but I liked it, especially for the money.

I've shot the whole thing in S-log, and recorded to BMVA in Prores. Out of camera footage looks lovely, but when I try to grade it, I'm struggling more then I was with the footage from blackmagic cams I've owned.

I've talked to a colorist and they suggested I do a color space transform to translate Slog into Cineon or LogC and grade that using some film print emulation.

This is where I've stumbled upon problems. When I try to do color space transform, the footage appears to be NOT Slog, but Gamma 2.4. Colors appear to be not S Gamut, but Rec709.

So my question is – does the use of BMVA affect the output of F3? Is the footage being interpreted from Slog into Gamma 2.4 and "baked-in" the ProRes files?

What am I missing?

Nah, that looks like Slog to me. Have you figured out a solution yet?

What lenses are you using? They look beautiful.

[markr041]

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 2:29 PM, redimp said:

Summoning the gurus back to this thread. @CineAlta @BenEricson @IronFilm @Dogtown

I have shot my first project on the F3 and BMVA combo. It has it's quirks, but I liked it, especially for the money.

I've shot the whole thing in S-log, and recorded to BMVA in Prores. Out of camera footage looks lovely, but when I try to grade it, I'm struggling more then I was with the footage from blackmagic cams I've owned.

I've talked to a colorist and they suggested I do a color space transform to translate Slog into Cineon or LogC and grade that using some film print emulation.

This is where I've stumbled upon problems. When I try to do color space transform, the footage appears to be NOT Slog, but Gamma 2.4. Colors appear to be not S Gamut, but Rec709.

So my question is – does the use of BMVA affect the output of F3? Is the footage being interpreted from Slog into Gamma 2.4 and "baked-in" the ProRes files?

What am I missing?

1. The metadata from your file says REC709.

2. It looks like Slog, however.

3. I used your clip in Resolve, set to Slog input color space and REC709 time line and output color space. The rendered video looks beautiful. So, it is actually Slog.

I will upload the rendered clip to Vimeo, but I am uploading another video now, so this will have to wait. I attached a tiff file from the rendered video. Looks good.

Test_1.1.1.tif

[sam]

if using Resolve, you will also most likely want to head over to clip attributes and change from "auto" to "full". In my experience,  Resolve interprets prores from recorders at video levels which is not always the proper choice with prores files, making the image appear to have more contrast, which may lead some to believe they are not dealing with slog.