Panasonic seems to be announcing something "BIG" on December 15

[Cliff Totten]

Guys,...this should blow your minds:

Sony A6500 vs. (potential) "GH5-S"

Physical sensor size and pixel count;

- Sony A6300/6500 (Sony IMX284) 24.3mp APS-C (593mm2) 
- GH5-S - (Sony IMX294) 11mp Micro 4/3 (373mm2)
______________________________________________________
Average photosite (pixel) size;

- Sony A6300/6500 = 593/24.3mp = 24.4  
- GH5-S = 373/10.3mp = 36.2 

Compared together = 36.2/24.4 = 1.48x LARGER pixels on this "GH5-S"! 

This Sony STARVIS IMX294 sensor "should" easily out perform the A6300/6500 in low light conditions. This does not even take into account the "quad pixel+ dual shutter speed" HDR modes that nobody understands yet.

This only thing that we are going to lose is the lovely 5k oversample that we all love in the GH5 today  :-(

WOW!!!!!

[Rinad Amir]

2 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Guys,...this should blow your minds:

Sony A6500 vs. (potential) "GH5-S"

Physical sensor size and pixel count;

- Sony A6300/6500 (Sony IMX284) 24.3mp APS-C (593mm2) 
- GH5-S - (Sony IMX294) 11mp Micro 4/3 (373mm2)
______________________________________________________
Average photosite (pixel) size;

- Sony A6300/6500 = 593/24.3mp = 24.4  
- GH5-S = 373/10.3mp = 36.2 

Compared together = 36.2/24.4 = 1.48x LARGER pixels on this "GH5-S"! 

This Sony STARVIS IMX294 sensor "should" easily out perform the A6300/6500 in low light conditions. This does not even take into account the "quad pixel+ dual shutter speed" HDR modes that nobody understands yet.

This only thing that we are going to lose is the lovely 5k oversample that we all love in the GH5 today  :-(

WOW!!!!!

 

[jonpais]

We cannot determine pixel size from sensor size and pixel count alone, so my mind isn’t blown just yet. ? Does anyone know the pixel density? 

[Cliff Totten]

Sorry folks, I have adjusted the sensor size numbers- here is the corrected ones...  ;-)

Guys,...this should "sill" blow your minds:

Sony A6500 vs. (potential) "GH5-S"

Physical sensor size and pixel count;

- Sony A6300/6500 (Sony IMX284) 24.3mp APS-C (23.6 x 15.6mm) = 368
- GH5-S - (Sony IMX294) 11mp Micro 4/3 (17.3 x 13mm) = 225
______________________________________________________
Average photosite (pixel) size;

- Sony A6300/6500 = 368/24.3mp = 15.1  
- GH5-S = 225/10.7mp = 21.0 

Compared together = 21.0/15.1 = 1.39x LARGER pixels on this "GH5-S"! 

This Sony STARVIS IMX294 sensor "should" easily out perform the A6300/6500 in low light conditions. This does not even take into account the "quad pixel+ dual shutter speed" HDR modes that nobody understands yet.

This only thing that we are going to lose is the lovely 5k oversample that we all love in the GH5 today  :-(

There....I think that's more accurate now! ;-)

 

WOW!!!!

[jonpais]

@Cliff Totten What is the pixel density of the new Sony sensor?

[Cliff Totten]

40 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@Cliff Totten What is the pixel density of the new Sony sensor?

The IMX294 is 10.7. But,...Im still not getting this "quad pixel" structure that it has and how that affects "actual" pixel count. Of course, we are still not sure that the GH5-S is actually using this sensor. It seems like they will but we wont know 100% until ChipWorks (TechInsights) tears the GH5-S down and X-rays it.

If Panasonic actually uses this chip and explains they are using a "quad pixel" array, than it's a 100% guarantee it's this Sony chip. However, Panasonic WILL go to great lengths to not discuss or give any "hints" that its a Sony chip. Panasonic is VERY against the idea if us all knowing who made the sensors they use. I had 3 Panasonic reps at NAB tell me "No, it's OUR chip in the GH5"

ChipWorks (TechInsights) actually does detailed analysis reports on many popular electronic devises. They de-solder chips, X-ray them, do cross section imaging and closely inspect with electron microscopes,...all the parts on a mainboard. They literally break down the foundry and manufacturing process of these sensors and sell the reports to companies that want to know how their competition builds their boards and who their suppliers are. They even map out the entire "inside" logic and schematic of a chip! VERY expensive analytic data! I cant afford it, nor would I even want to pay for it. However, the outside of the report does easily identify the sensor.

Anyhoo,...they absolutely nailed the GH5 with a Sony EXMOR IMX272 image sensor. So, sorry Panny and Sony,...you guys got outed,...dirty style! 

 

CT 

[jonpais]

@Cliff Totten Cool beans!

[Dave Maze]

3 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Sorry folks, I have adjusted the sensor size numbers- here is the corrected ones...  ;-)

Guys,...this should "sill" blow your minds:

Sony A6500 vs. (potential) "GH5-S"

Physical sensor size and pixel count;

- Sony A6300/6500 (Sony IMX284) 24.3mp APS-C (23.6 x 15.6mm) = 368
- GH5-S - (Sony IMX294) 11mp Micro 4/3 (17.3 x 13mm) = 225
______________________________________________________
Average photosite (pixel) size;

- Sony A6300/6500 = 368/24.3mp = 15.1  
- GH5-S = 225/10.7mp = 21.0 

Compared together = 21.0/15.1 = 1.39x LARGER pixels on this "GH5-S"! 

This Sony STARVIS IMX294 sensor "should" easily out perform the A6300/6500 in low light conditions. This does not even take into account the "quad pixel+ dual shutter speed" HDR modes that nobody understands yet.

This only thing that we are going to lose is the lovely 5k oversample that we all love in the GH5 today  :-(

There....I think that's more accurate now! ;-)

 

WOW!!!!

I love your enthusiasm!! 

[kidzrevil]

@Cliff Totten please keep in mind that the sony a6500 is downscaling from a 6k sensor. That negates alot of the visible noise. 

I hope this gh5s does clean 6400 iso

[Andrew Reid]

@Cliff Totten I like your enthusiasm!

However you can't get the pixel size of a sensor from the maths you used, it just doesn't work that way. There are gaps between pixels which vary in size as well.

Sony have published the pixel size of the sensor already.

It's 4.63 µm (H) × 4.63 µm (V)

http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/new_pro/may_2017/imx294cjk_e.html

Even then this is not the final spec for low light, other things will determine it as well, such as readout noise, noise reduction, pixel design and structure, readout speed, bit depth, native sensitivity, video mode, scaling, codec and even more.

The Sony A7S II (12MP full frame) has the largest pixels and lowest density for the size.

That is 8.4 micron (µm H) x 8.4 µm (V)

Also we should bear in mind amidst the hype, that the sensor model used by the GH5S is purely speculative on behalf of the rumors sites and users - they are the ones that have found a match between the rumored specs and a Sony sensor... but it might not even be a Sony chip, it could be a similar one from somewhere else with completely different performance characteristics. Until Panasonic announce anything therefore, it is all rumours! The Sony one fits the bill for sure, but let's wait and see. It was originally marketed for industrial use, not mirrorless.

It might be very good in low light, but the pixel size and density is not the most impressive thing about it, at least on paper.

If it shoots 12bit raw DNG with compression... THAT will improve low light performance no end.

[seku]

Andrew, please don't make us dream... I mean Magic Latern managed to real-time compress DNG RAW to record on CF cards. Wouldn't it be fun if Panasonic added a teenie weenie little 6G SDI raw capable port on its cams

[mkabi]

Ummmm.... sorry to rain on your parade....

But... What if on December 15 they just put out a Firmware update???

Sure, there are patents and prototypes out there...

But, isn't it a bit stupid of any company to announce anything 10 days before christmas and/or boxing day?

I'm thinking of this particular scenario:

Our spouses and/or partner may be thinking of buying you a GH5 for christmas.... and then you say.... no no wait for the December 15 announcement....  then you say... I want a GH5S.... then your partner asks.... when is that going to come out? In February/March.... OH.... Spouse/partner buys you a tie or mug for Christmas.

[seku]

don't take it too seriously, this is a fun speculation thread, with some good information interspersed

If there is no big announcement... i'll buy the GH5, or if i drink too much during festivities, i'll order the EVA1. And if you have a partner that would buy a cam for you... damn am i jelly.

[IronFilm]

On 12/3/2017 at 5:24 AM, mechanicalEYE said:

 

I understand that you only purchased the GH5 3 weeks ago, but it has been released since March, that's a bit more than a few months. If there is announcement Dec 15th, at that time you'll have the option to really weigh things out and know if your buyers remorse is justified. Until then, I see no reason why you cant enjoy your GH5 for all the other good things that enticed you to buy it just 3 weeks ago. 

By the time it has filled pre orders, and you can buy a "GH5S" off the shelf, then the GH5 original will pretty much have been around for an entire year. 

Which is on the short end of a product life cycle, but by no means totally unreasonable or unprecedented. 

On 12/3/2017 at 8:16 AM, Kisaha said:

Fuji is rumored to have a video dedicated new camera soon also, maybe Panasonic is rushing things because a 2000$ APS-C camera, with a lot of native lenses (+recently released cheap cine lenses) and IBIS will compete with their GH5 really soon, rather than a double price-full frame camera from Sony. Buy a GH5 and a couple of lenses, or three, for 3000$, that ain't even the body of the Sony, and then you have to spend two times more for a couple of Sony lenses. I do not believe that a new A7s, that will be close to 4000$, will be the main competitor of the GH5. I am not even sure that Sony can implement 10 bit internal on that camera, but we will see.

It is not just Fuji who will release a $2K APS-C mirrorless camera, but sometime in the next year (or so) then we can expect Nikon will release an APS-C mirrorless camera in around that price point. Now it might be a flop like their N1 mirrorless system, but also it might be massively massively popular because well it is Nikon. 

Then you also have Canon, who might surprise us in waking from their slumber with a better EOS-M series camera. 

So Panasonic faces a few threats, most probably will not pan out and will disappoint, but only one of them needs to be a hit (such as a mirrorless D5x00 with the insides of a NX1) and then Panasonic could be in trouble. 

3 hours ago, mkabi said:

But, isn't it a bit stupid of any company to announce anything 10 days before christmas and/or boxing day?

I'm thinking of this particular scenario:

Our spouses and/or partner may be thinking of buying you a GH5 for christmas.... and then you say.... no no wait for the December 15 announcement....  then you say... I want a GH5S.... then your partner asks.... when is that going to come out? In February/March.... OH.... Spouse/partner buys you a tie or mug for Christmas.

I have been thinking this myself for a long time, and I'm kinda hoping it is the Dec15 date which is wrong rather than the coming GH5S news which is wrong. 

3 hours ago, seku said:

or if i drink too much during festivities, i'll order the EVA1

Please drink too much

[Cliff Totten]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

@Cliff Totten I like your enthusiasm!

However you can't get the pixel size of a sensor from the maths you used, it just doesn't work that way. There are gaps between pixels which vary in size as well.

Sony have published the pixel size of the sensor already.

It's 4.63 µm (H) × 4.63 µm (V)

http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/new_pro/may_2017/imx294cjk_e.html

Even then this is not the final spec for low light, other things will determine it as well, such as readout noise, noise reduction, pixel design and structure, readout speed, bit depth, native sensitivity, video mode, scaling, codec and even more.

The Sony A7S II (12MP full frame) has the largest pixels and lowest density for the size.

That is 8.4 micron (µm H) x 8.4 µm (V)

Also we should bear in mind amidst the hype, that the sensor model used by the GH5S is purely speculative on behalf of the rumors sites and users - they are the ones that have found a match between the rumored specs and a Sony sensor... but it might not even be a Sony chip, it could be a similar one from somewhere else with completely different performance characteristics. Until Panasonic announce anything therefore, it is all rumours! The Sony one fits the bill for sure, but let's wait and see. It was originally marketed for industrial use, not mirrorless.

It might be very good in low light, but the pixel size and density is not the most impressive thing about it, at least on paper.

If it shoots 12bit raw DNG with compression... THAT will improve low light performance no end.

Yeah, its true that this is not a good way to measure photosites. CamSpec has the IMX284 APS-C A6500 sensor has having a pixel pitch of 3.9 microns. The IMX294 is 4.63microns so they are larger than the  A6500 but not as much as my sensor size comparison has them.

Yes, we dont know for sure what sensor the GH5-S will have. They purchased a Sony IMX272 for the current GH5 so they certainly have no trouble buying from Sony. Its certainly possible they could do it all over again on this "S" model. I'm also convinced they purchased Sony's 6k/5k readout to 4k scaling engine. As far as I know, Panasonic up until this GH5 has only ever pulled off a 1:1  4k deBayer process. They have never oversampled before. I could be wrong but it just smells like Sony to me. It also makes sense as Sony made the sensor for that very reason and we all know how adept Sony is at oversampling readout as they have been doing it for years now.

The biggest question for me is; "What in the hell is this QUAD pixel layout with dual exposure process?"  In a 4 photosite cluster, we have TWO different read and dump cycle times???

In theory, 2 pixels could have a 1/30 second exposure (to see deep into shadows) while the other two could have 1/60 exposure times to protect the highlights? How do you bin those four values into one "pixel"? Do you take the 1/30 for everything "under" middle grey....and take the 1/60 for everything "over" middle grey and then blend the readings?

Does Sony count each 4 pixel cluster as 4 "seperate" sized photosites or join the four into one fat multi-exposure photosite output?

I think this binning process is some kind of vudoo!

Panasonic/Fuji "Organic" CMOS? I doubt it. I have read that these organic sensors get extremely hot and use enormous amounts of power. I asked a well-known Sony engineer at NAB about this organic CMOS tech and his exact quote was; "Hahaha!,...let me tell ya'... Building the Spruce Goose is ONE thing...actually FLYING it is a completely different story!"

They can play with that in a lab all they want but actually making a "real" working camera with it is one hell of a task.

CT 

[Shirozina]

It would be ironic if this new GH5 was a more 'stills' oriented camera with a higher MP count and reduced video capability.

[Andrew Reid]

12 minutes ago, Shirozina said:

It would be ironic if this new GH5 was a more 'stills' oriented camera with a higher MP count and reduced video capability.

Ironic indeed, but I don't see this making much sense as they have the G9 line for stills.

[Jonesy Jones]

@Cliff Totten @jonpais @Andrew Reid

Not sure if you guys saw or read my incredibly long and boring post in the middle path thread, but I am pretty certain this new camera will either have the same sensor or a new iteration of the sensor that is in the current GH5. My logic is as follows:

• Luke has shared several images from his production with the new "camera" (or whatever it is). The resolution of the larger image is 6656 x 2496. Currently the GH5 has the ALL-I anamorphic mode that shoots 3328 x 2496. So, with a 2x anamorphic lens, which Luke is shooting with, the images will be exactly 6656 x 2496. He also shared 2 smaller images that were 3328 x 1248, which is obviously an exact 50% decrease from the larger and would make complete sense that he just descaled by 50% for those. There is a 4th image that is exactly 6656 x 2496/1.73333 = 3840 x 1440, which I think is Luke either just experimenting with the horizontal resolution of UHD, or the vertical resolution of Youtube's 1440 res. 
• Could the new proposed Starvis sensor have a 3328 x 2496 anamorphic mode within it's max 4168 x 2824? Sure. But does that seem a bit contrived? It does to me. Unless there is something special about 3328 x 2496. Which by the way is also an EXACT 1/3 decrease from the current GH5 open gate of 4992 x 3744. (I'm assuming that 1/3 decrease helps with ETC and IBIS.)
• Therefore, because these shared images are exact simple ratios of the anamorphic mode of the current GH5, I'm thinking that either A) this new camera has the exact same sensor as the current one, or B) it is a version 2 of the same sensor, with improved specs. We've actually seen this before with BM's URSA and Micro Cinema Cams. The version 2 of those same sensors gave us more fps and supposedly better IQ. This could be a version 2 of the current GH5 sensor, or a recalibration with improved specs. 
• Luke's title of "The Middle Path" has had me thinking. I've been focused on the word "Middle", however I think "Path" is just as significant. Luke is very familiar with Red, and even discussed Red in that exact same thread. Red is well known for their upgrade "Paths", and the more I think about it, the more this new thing seems like it could be an upgrade program with the current GH5. I know there is no precedence for this from Panasonic, but I am thinking there could be an upgrade path for current GH5 owners (since it just came out pretty recently) to whatever this new camera is. I think that upgrade will cost $500, or $2500 for the new camera itself. And this also comes from simple math based on Luke's multiple uses of 1524.8% times the camera in relation to using the $38,120 Arri anamorphic lens. 
• Bottomline, I am thinking that there is a new camera based on an improved version of the current sensor. It will cost $2500 or be a $500 upgrade for current GH5 owners. It will have improved video features. Better low light, audio, and auto focus would be my top guesses. But I think more DR and better color too (Luke's images are just superb). I don't think any of those specs will be "omg this is the last camera I'll ever need to buy" amazing, but they'll at least be better than they currently are. Maybe a better monitor? Maybe improved focus assist stuff? Maybe 10 bit 60 fps or 72 fps? Maybe more? Again, I think we should manage expectations here, but it's not inconceivable that all or most of those hypotheticals are at least improved to some degree for this new video centric GH5. 

[JordanWright]

6 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

It will cost $2500 or be a $500 upgrade for current GH5 owners. It will have improved video features. Better low light, audio, and auto focus would be my top guesses. But I think more DR and better color too (Luke's images are just superb).

This seems believable, I can't see them dropping sensor resolution but a DR upgrade would be welcomed

[majoraxis]

Maybe the lower resolution STARVIS sensor with the pixel shifting tech of the G9, to get higher resolution photos would be an acceptable compromise for the photo side of the GH5S.  Seems like weird timing to release an upgraded GH5 right before Christmas if it has basically the same sensor, why not wait until CES or some time early next year to keep the GH5 Holiday sales number up.