Panasonic seems to be announcing something "BIG" on December 15

[Don Kotlos]

Let me illustrate it for you

[Oliver Daniel]

1 hour ago, Jonesy Jones said:

This question is for anyone, but I am tagging @mercer and @Oliver Daniel since they have both brought it up numerous times recently.

What is dual ISO? Or what are you or others referring to when you say dual ISO? Because it could mean a couple things as far as I know.

Someone more technical than I could really help. Thanks.

There are far more people here more interested and knowledgable about the technical things here, however the latter mention in your post is my understanding. It seems like the most obvious step for a Panasonic GH Camera (Dual ISO). 

In terms of higher DR, we don’t know if Luke’s images are benefiting from this. This could be down to skill and technique, like grading and the softness of the light source. 

Honestly, if the new GH5 has higher (cleaner) sensitivity, 10bit 4K 50/60p , better dynamic range and roll off performance - the only thing it will be missing is dependable video AF. (Still can’t beat that A6500!) 

I don’t think you’ll ever need another camera for a very long time, if so. 

[wolf33d]

4 hours ago, mercer said:

@wolf33d I highly doubt the GH5s will have PDAF. And honestly, is a GH5 that much smaller than a DSLR? I assume the 7D3 will have the 8bit 150mbps 4K from the C200. And I doubt any camera maker, other than Panasonic, will have 10bit for a little while. For most work, 10bit is unnecessary. So if good AF were important to me, I would choose a camera that has DPAF or PDAF over 10bit color.

Now I would love for the GH5s to have a ProRes or Raw option, but for the rumored price that seems unlikely as well. So far, everything I’ve seen from it looks stunning, so it will definitely make a lot of videographers very happy.

Sony A7S is half the weight of D850. I hike and trek for days at a time with 40lbs backpack so having camera as light as possible helps. 

I agree about 10 bits, I don’t care. 

However IBIS is a huge deal for me, as much as AF, and 4K60p also. 

A7S3 will have all this hopeful. GH5s might if only for the af 

[Django]

4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Very bad marketing from Panasonic, not something they do.

As of the size/weight, something very important for me, when choosing a small camera.

Nikon D750 Dimensions (W x H x D)5.5 x 4.4 x 3.1" / 140.5 x 113.0 x 78.0 mm Weight1.650 lbs / 750 g

GH5 Dimensions:5.5 x 3.9 x 3.4 in. (139 x 98 x 87 mm) Weight:25.6 oz (725 g)

A7Riii Dimensions:5.0 x 3.8 x 2.9 in.(127 x 96 x 74 mm)Weight:23.2 oz (657 g)

Samsung NX1 Dimensions:5.5 x 4.0 x 2.6 in.(139 x 102 x 66 mm) Weight: 19.5 oz (550 g)

Canon 7DmkII Dimensions:5.9 x 4.4 x 3.1 in.(149 x 112 x 78 mm) Weight2.002 lbs / 910 g

My humble opinion is that NX1 nailed it for an APS-C pro mirrorless body, and Nikon for a full frame dSLR. The rest are even too big/heavy for their sensor (and native lenses), and others too small/light (yes, having a very small and light full frame camera isn't ergonomically right for bigger and heavier lenses).

GH5 has the smallest sensor, but is the heaviest mirrorless there is. D750, being a full frame dSLR, has almost the same volume as the GH5. Adding an adapter there, you add more weight and size, worst AF (if, at all), no native lenses and obviously aditional cost.

Canon needs to step up their game, fast. Who is going to buy the 7D in 2018? and even if the 7D mark III arrives in 2018, in no way will have the same codec as the C200, a camera that costs 3-4 times the 7DmkIII price. We all know how Canon plays the game. 

Canonikon have to realize mirrorless is the future (present and past, for most of us).

..you forgot Fuji XT2: 132.5mm (W) x 91.8mm (H) x 49.2mm (D) weight: 507g (including battery and memory card)

& A6500:  120.0 mm x 66.9 mm x 53.3 mm weight: 453 g

As for the 7D3, well it is kind of Canon's last chance at videographers for 2018.. they could turn a few heads around (myself included) if they gave us a DPAF equipped body with a non-crop (APS-C/Super35) full-readout 4K mode, C-Log and gave us another option than MJPEG or at least 4K HDMI out.. but that would mean Canon listening to consumers.. and what are the chances of that happening?

 

[wolf33d]

1 hour ago, Django said:

 

As for the 7D3, well it is kind of Canon's last chance at videographers for 2018.. they could turn a few heads around (myself included) if they gave us a DPAF equipped body with a non-crop (APS-C/Super35) full-readout 4K mode, C-Log and gave us another option than MJPEG or at least 4K HDMI out.. but that would mean Canon listening to consumers.. and what are the chances of that happening?

 

It would still miss IBIS, would still miss 4K60P unfortunately. 

[webrunner5]

47 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

It would still miss IBIS, would still miss 4K60P unfortunately. 

Yeah unless Canon comes out with some pretty crazy good, first effort, hard core mirrorless FF camera I think they are Never going to claw back in any way as a thought for someone buy it as a serious video camera. Sort of their last chance I think. Video is just too important in this day and age to keep protecting their top end stuff. And even that is eroding as of late. 

I think about every video camera manufacturer other than Sony and Panasonic better pick up the pace. Both are out to kill the others big time. Stuff is cheap enough now to be able to change brands, and with mirrorless you don't even have to give up your lens.

4 hours ago, Don Kotlos said:

Let me illustrate it for you

I can see your graphs prove Exactly what I have been saying, Sony has No Dual ISO, and the second graph proves what I said in the beginning that Larger wells, ergo bigger pixels per sq inch, like in the Sony F3,  mean better low light ability. And that graph also proves why the Sony A7s wins with less noise, small sensor mp size just like the new Panasonic will probably be and some new electronic Mumbo Jumbo, or the new Organic sensor which is a Whole lot of new Mumbo Jumbo....

You can only have low noise in this day in age 3 ways. 1. Dual Native ISO. 2. Very low mp count on a small sensor, ergo big pixels. 3. Or big ass pixels on a big ass sensor, ergo MF.

Sony has made gains with their circuitry since the original sensor. I think everyone has to be honest. I can see that if this Organic thing is true that might be the game changer we all are looking for. But I sure as hell am not liking this path Panasonic and Olympus are taking of raising the shit out of prices, granted they have produced better cameras, but this is a damn slippery slope down the road. What we are going to have to pay 5 thousand bucks for a GH7??

[mercer]

3 hours ago, wolf33d said:

Sony A7S is half the weight of D850. I hike and trek for days at a time with 40lbs backpack so having camera as light as possible helps. 

I agree about 10 bits, I don’t care. 

However IBIS is a huge deal for me, as much as AF, and 4K60p also. 

A7S3 will have all this hopeful. GH5s might if only for the af 

I guess the a7s3 will have 4K 60p but since the a7r3 didn’t get it... then it’s quite possible the a7s won’t either. Most likely, if anything, it will export it.

[webrunner5]

4 minutes ago, mercer said:

I guess the a7s3 will have 4K 60p but since the a7r3 didn’t get it... then it’s quite possible the a7s won’t either. Most likely, if anything, it will export it.

Yeah but what would a A7s mkIII bring to the table without it over a A7r mkIII?? They Have to have something to make it worth the up grade LoL. The A7r mkIII is pretty much a dream camera now, heck the mkII was before it. I know FF video is better on the s than the r but the s35 on the r is kick ass. And that is on the mkII.

I don't know enough about the A7r mkIII video and we know nothing about the A7s mkIII.

[mercer]

2 hours ago, Django said:

As for the 7D3, well it is kind of Canon's last chance at videographers for 2018.. they could turn a few heads around (myself included) if they gave us a DPAF equipped body with a non-crop (APS-C/Super35) full-readout 4K mode, C-Log and gave us another option than MJPEG or at least 4K HDMI out.. but that would mean Canon listening to consumers.. and what are the chances of that happening?

Well, if I remember correctly, the original 7D was kinda marketed towards video, so I wouldn’t be surprised. The question will be if they use mjpeg or mp4. It’s rumored to be announced in March/April right before NAB, so that would assume a May/June availability which would bring it right around two years after the 5D4 was announced... so a considerate jump wouldn’t be unheard of. And then there’s the FF mirrorless rumored to be announced by year’s end... so we’ll see.

I would say that without a doubt, for the foreseeable future, the GH5/GH5s is king for video features alone.

[webrunner5]

2 minutes ago, mercer said:

I would say that without a doubt, for the foreseeable future, the GH5/GH5s is king for video features alone.

There is a possibility that the "GH5s" might be a total game changer for video from this day forward!

[mercer]

16 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

There is a possibility that the "GH5s" might be a total game changer for video from this day forward!

Idk, not for only $500 more but I’m sure, when announced it will be an Oprah car giveaway around here...

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

What is dual ISO? Or what are you or others referring to when you say dual ISO? Because it could mean a couple things as far as I know.

The first meaning, that I've heard is when the camera shoots simultaneously at two different ISO's and later they are combined to create an image with higher DR.

I was referring to this, or something similar to this. As you said, Magic Lantern has had this for years and regular Canon firmware has been doing it for awhile now as well by alternating two ISO values every frame or few frames.

With Panasonic bringing HDR features into the GH5, I assume it would be related to that feature in some way. Dual ISO, or some sort of dual exposure maybe by using both card slots?

[hoodlum]

Panasonic seems to think that there would be a benefit in supporting 14-bit RAW files from the GH5s sensor.  This would be a first for m43.

https://photorumors.com/2017/12/17/updated-panasonic-gh5s-specifications/

 

[Don Kotlos]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

I can see your graphs prove Exactly what I have been saying

You have said many things which most of them are wrong really. The graphs should indicate to you that there are different analog circuits used at different ISOs. Thats the basis for Panasonic's dual iso or Sony's Dual Conversion Gain. Thats what I said earlier:

No they just change the analog circuit at different ISOs just like Sony and the aptina sensors instead of just applying a gain.

These are few of your replies to this:

6 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

That is in no way what Sony Does.

Well maybe it does LoL. Basically the BSI usage as Sony calls it, is in essence dual pixels also.

 

6 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

It is not the same sensor for the Sony or the Panasonic. That write up is OLD tech. Both company's would have been sued long time ago. They have modified it, and Panasonic has Never claimed more DR like Sony has. Sony has No sensor that has true dual native ISO's.

 

7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I can only gather that the sensor in a Varicam 35, and the mini has dual pixels from what I have read sort of like Canon does, but uses them for the Dual ISO instead of DPAF like Canon does.

So in reality  Panasonic has two senors instead of the normal one. So each one is just for a different Native ISO.

 

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Don Kotlos said:

You have said many things which most of them are wrong really. The graphs should indicate to you that there are different analog circuits used at different ISOs.

Well I will admit to "screwing up with the gee Sony doesn't have dual pixels. Other than that I stick with what I said. Seeing how Sony doesn't Have a Dual ISO camera like you are stating.

A dual gain camera is what you, and that is what I call it., dual ISO, well not really.  I mean cameras all use Gain to change, ergo boost the ISO.  So I see no real use of a radical breakthrough here.

Supposaly Sony is turning a Capacitor on and off to accomplish it. I think they are most likely turning a Transistor off and on.  Capacitors are not instantaneous like a Transistor can be. But maybe they need the lag? That could be software based not hardware based. Hence if software, no need for a analog circuit. Analog implies to me hard wiring.

[webrunner5]

But in a sense every component on a chip has a leg I guess so I guess it would be "Hard Wired", controlled by other hardware and then controlled by software. That part beyond my knowledge in this day and age. 20 years ago maybe not. Once they went into the billions and billions of components I have no clue anymore.. I just give them my money now LoL.

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

What we are going to have to pay 5 thousand bucks for a GH7??

If the GH7 comes out next year with the features and specs of an EVA1 but with a MFT mount then that would be a steal at that price!!!

[Fritz Pierre]

Panasonic only releases their GH cameras every couple of years...I doubt that this will be an exception...if the GH5 cannot shoot the scene due to low Iight, time to bring a light...this "release" is something else in my opinion.....+1000 for the EVA release with a M4/3 mount....preferably professional locking style...I have a feeling the grumbling about the EF mount continues to be downplayed...a huge mistake for Panasonic on this camera!

[wolf33d]

11 hours ago, hoodlum said:

Panasonic seems to think that there would be a benefit in supporting 14-bit RAW files from the GH5s sensor.  This would be a first for m43.

https://photorumors.com/2017/12/17/updated-panasonic-gh5s-specifications/

 

So if these latest rumors are true, AF is the same as GH5. 
Awful news. Didn't make my day. 

[Rinad Amir]

8 hours ago, wolf33d said:

So if these latest rumors are true, AF is the same as GH5. 
Awful news. Didn't make my day. 

how bad is AF on GH5 ? 

think about all the good stuff Panna gives you like Waveform scopes V-log 10bit everything that we need focus peak?

ah too much to list compare to the competition for another 5 years if so?

[Rinad Amir]

I had 80D with sigma arts 18-35mm 50-100 1.8 and autofocus is not that super asome as eveybody says unless u use native glass but thats it nothing else fancy about canon that i found keeping .So GH5 was way forward 

now i can shoot slow mo 

have 4k and i can frame my shots have focus peak

actual Log 

dual sd slot flip up screen i mean comon stop moanin people 

if u want eveything get 

alexa or red