Decisions decisions

[Nicholson Ruiz]

I am currently looking at the mark iv, 1dc and mark iii. I am a solo creative video creator and video editor nearing graduation and will like to film promos, take pictures,film music videos and possibly travel videos. I am unsure which of these tools will work the best for me. Recently sold my NX1 to upgrade. Any suggestions? 

Ruiz

[webrunner5]

I don't know, but as much as any of those Canon bodies are you could buy a Canon C100 for the video part of it.. And you can take great pictures with just about any camera made in the last five years.

My Favorite would be the Canon 1DC, but it is a data hog in 4k for a lot of what you want. The mkIV has just too much of a crop in 4k for me to swallow. The mkIII is great for the Magic Lateran hack, but a little soft in 1080p.

Some might think the Canons are a "downgrade" to the NX1 LoL. Hmm interesting.. Killer video, 28mp stills, great body layout, great lenses.....

Yeah, get a C100 with the DPAF and be done with it. Now if you want stealth well maybe not, but I would argue none of the above Canon DSLR's are very stealthy either. Buy a Sony RX100 mk V if you want stealth.

[austinchimp]

I agree - I'm not sure how much of an 'upgrade' you expect from your NX1 in terms of the quality of results as a hybrid photo/video machine. From what I've seen the Nx1 is more than enough quality wise for somebody starting out.

Might it be that you're thinking in terms of looking more pro to pick up additional work? In which case a Canon (C100, 1DC, 5D) does look more pro, without giving you any significant quality increase from the NX1.

Personally I've found more and more that one camera doesn't cover me for top quality stills and video. I now use a dedicated photo camera and dedicated video camera, which isn't ideal.

As you're at an early stage in your career and looking to improve your craft, I'd say any modern hybrid camera or DSLR should be good enough. One thing you should think about is frame rates - if you're hoping to recreate some of the modern styles of travel vids and promos, slow mo is used quite heavily as is hand held camera movement. Perhaps something like the GH5 with decent slow motion and decent stills, along with great IBIS would work for you?

The 1DC is great but doesn't have good slow motion, while I personally find the 1DX ii too heavy and big for travel, and it lacks a little flexibility without a Log profile.

Just my thoughts.

[HockeyFan12]

23 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't know, but as much as any of those Canon bodies are you could buy a Canon C100 for the video part of it.. And you can take great pictures with just about any camera made in the last five years.

My Favorite would be the Canon 1DC, but it is a data hog in 4k for a lot of what you want. The mkIV has just too much of a crop in 4k for me to swallow. The mkIII is great for the Magic Lateran hack, but a little soft in 1080p.

Some might think the Canons are a "downgrade" to the NX1 LoL. Hmm interesting.. Killer video, 28mp stills, great body layout, great lenses.....

Yeah, get a C100 with the DPAF and be done with it. Now if you want stealth well maybe not, but I would argue none of the above Canon DSLR's are very stealthy either. Buy a Sony RX100 mk V if you want stealth.

I agree, a C100 Mk II and an 80D would be my choice. Not so much for image quality (which is still very very good) but convenience. Once your workload scales up, every hour transcoding or fixing weird Sony SLGO2 colors is going to cost you $50-$100 minimum... But at first you don't want to pay a ton and get into debt. So I think Canon's cameras combine the ease of use and image quality that's required without costing a ton, even if you can get a little more with a lot more effort by spending a little bit less elsewhere. For hobbyists and people stealing locations, I think mirrorless is cool. But for getting into paying work the C100 Mk II imo is the best choice (it would also be my choice for personal work, but that's a personal preference).

I think the 1DC would offer a better image for the price, but not by much, and only with a lot more overhead for storage and a lot more kit to set up focus aids and accessories, etc. 

If you're starting a business, I would say C100 Mk II for sure. Otherwise, just whatever intrigues you most as a hobbyist. 

[mkabi]

I know I should be hawking the 1DC right now.

But, if I were you... Because you are coming from the NX1... I’m sure you haven’t invested in many Canon lenses....

Go with the Gh5... and later the Eva1...

You know that Panasonic won’t disappoint in the long run.... and because your a bonafide film student... you of all people should appreciate the 6K opengate anamorphic mode.... 

 

[Nicholson Ruiz]

Thanks one and all for the wonderful replies. 

Ruiz

[IronFilm]

Did you go with a GH2 for now? Until something better?

[Dave Maze]

I shoot YouTube content on my 1DC almost every day and edit on a base model MacBook Pro 13” late 2016. I transcode all my footage to either 2k ProRes LT or 4K ProRes LT using EditReady 2.0. Sometimes I’ll also convert to proxy inside of fcpx if I’m doing 4K. Honestly, I need an iMac pro to handle the footage natively but the best thing about the 1DC (and MJPEG 4K Canons) is the 8bit 4:2:2. Footage from my 5 year old 1DC still looks better than a modern C200 8bit 4:2:0 .mp4 and has better low light too. 

You can even do AF lock on your face really easily for selfie shooting 

 

 

with that being said............... I’m still considering going to 1DX II for the dual pixel AF. It truly would make shooting myself a breeze. 

 

The codec sux on one hand because it’s massive and you need to convert it... but once you convert it to ProRes it truly is a dream when you look at the picture quality. 

Also, the perk with 1DC that 1DXii doesn’t have is the superb Super35 mode. Looks identical to C100 footage. It’s 8bit 4:2:0, but because it’s pulling straight off the sensor, it is super sharp and detailed unlike the 1080p full frame 1DX II image. Again, so so so stupid that NEW cameras like 5Div and 1DXii 1080p is still as soft as it was five years ago on the 5Diii internal. So so so stupid. 

[webrunner5]

I don't see what is wrong with the 80D you tested here at the end compared to the 1DC softness wise. And surely it would weight less. And to have DPAF, seems like a winner to me. Trouble is you have to have both. No 4k in the 80D is just stupid on Canon's part in this day and age.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrC5pZ2ZWtaczUAzts0nIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBncGdyMzQ0BHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEdnRpZAM-;_

Interesting that you can do a 4k time lapse on a 80D though. A damn good looking one at that!

 

[mkabi]

18 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't see what is wrong with the 80D you tested here at the end compared to the 1DC softness wise. And surely it would weight less. And to have DPAF, seems like a winner to me. Trouble is you have to have both. No 4k in the 80D is just stupid on Canon's part in this day and age.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrC5pZ2ZWtaczUAzts0nIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBncGdyMzQ0BHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEdnRpZAM-;_

See...  I said this over at CR and nobody disputed it, and I will say it here again.

I don't think that Canon knew how to put 4K in the 80D, nor did they know how to put in the 6D mark 2 and nor will they know when they put out the 90D...

And, we can say that they are protecting their higher end models and/or the cinema eos brand.... but I think its the pesky MJPEG that they keep using. How do you fit 500 mbps (4K/24p) and/or 800 mbps (4K/60p) into their SD interface?

Sure Panasonic did it, but I'm sure that Canon is using older SD interfaces... perhaps because they bought them in bulk on the cheap... and they are trying to get rid of them as much as possible.... Remember when they kept using the 18MP APS-C Sensors from the original 7D to the SL1 (it was also used in the 60D, t2i, t3i, t4i and t5i - and a bunch of other rebel xt models).

 

[webrunner5]

2 minutes ago, mkabi said:

See...  I said this over at CR and nobody disputed it, and I will say it here again.

I don't think that Canon knew how to put 4K in the 80D, nor did they know how to put in the 6D mark 2 and nor will they know when they put out the 90D...

And, we can say that they are protecting their higher end models and/or the cinema eos brand.... but I think its the pesky MJPEG that they keep using. How do you fit 500 mbps (4K/24p) and/or 800 mbps (4K/60p) into their SD interface?

Sure Panasonic did it, but I'm sure that Canon is using older SD interfaces... perhaps because they bought them in bulk on the cheap... and they are trying to get rid of them as much as possible.... Remember when they kept using the 18MP APS-C Sensors from the original 7D to the SL1 (it was also used in the 60D, t2i, t3i, t4i and t5i - and a bunch of other rebel xt models).

 

Yeah I have a t5i and they got their moneys worth out of that sensor LoL. I think they just want to protect the 5D mk IV and the Pro C series stuff. But hell I think, like you think, it is a crazy way to run a railroad in this day and age.

[Kisaha]

60D was a great camera at the time, did some personal projects with it, and low budget stuff, 80D is more like a joke of a camera. Seriously, what is the upgrade vs the NX1?? Slightly better AF? The NX1 with the 18-200 (terrible lens, but versatile) is around 98% touch focus success in day light. The NX1 is so much better in everything, that a slightly better AF is not doing it. And it has a time lapse mode also. To really upgrade from the NX1 you really have to go much higher, and still not everything is so much better, especially if you truly need a true hybrid camera. The top Canons, like Dave (and you) mentioned and the A7Riii are the ones coming to mind now.

If you want to specialize in video, consider buying a more typical video camera form factor. In my opinion still can't beat that for video. Canon C100mkII is a very good camera, if you do not shoot, or need 4K, and 80D isn't a C100mkII in dSLR form, no way! You should have stick to your NX1, and wait for the next generation though.

[Matthew Hartman]

On 1/27/2018 at 1:00 AM, Kisaha said:

60D was a great camera at the time, did some personal projects with it, and low budget stuff, 80D is more like a joke of a camera. Seriously, what is the upgrade vs the NX1?? Slightly better AF? The NX1 with the 18-200 (terrible lens, but versatile) is around 98% touch focus success in day light. The NX1 is so much better in everything, that a slightly better AF is not doing it. And it has a time lapse mode also. To really upgrade from the NX1 you really have to go much higher, and still not everything is so much better, especially if you truly need a true hybrid camera. The top Canons, like Dave (and you) mentioned and the A7Riii are the ones coming to mind now.

If you want to specialize in video, consider buying a more typical video camera form factor. In my opinion still can't beat that for video. Canon C100mkII is a very good camera, if you do not shoot, or need 4K, and 80D isn't a C100mkII in dSLR form, no way! You should have stick to your NX1, and wait for the next generation though.

I'm going to be bold and just state my opinion some may find offensive. To get better video (or better moving images) in terms of the NX1, like Kisaha said you have to move up to a dedicated proper cinema camera, which judging your talent you should be seriously considering.

Even the GH5 or Sony A7RIII isn't going to give you a huge leap in terms of quality except the 10-bit in the GH5/s, over the NX1, but even here the difference isn't going to be staggering.

I'd hate to see you throw your money at these bodies and be let down, because I know your next investment has to really count for you, and I know how much you like the NX1. I know you and I have spoken about this away from these boards, but I want to state it here too for those in a similar situation. I think a lot of us think about this subject a lot. 

This is why I'm personally moving into BMD (still keeping my NX1 for BCam) which seems like the natural step up in terms of cost/quality gain. Dollar for dollar the UMP gives you a ton of bang for the buck, I'm actually shocked BMD is not jumping on the RED/Arri bandwagon and charging an arm and a leg for their products, because they could and still sell them just fine. Kinefinity is another that comes to mind here. This is great news for the industry. Bad news for RED and Arri. 

I've seen the UMP footage cut with the Alexa footage and it holds up very well, they're very similar in terms of DR, aesthetic and how they capture motion. Both look very filmic. The drawbacks of course is the weight and size, ( and limited low light capabilities of a cinema camera) which if you're like me, would mean also updating some of my stabilization gear to support the cam's weight. Sigh. No one said this industry is cheap.

Personally I'm not impressed with the EVA 1, which by the time you outfit the UMP is comparable in price. It's build is very plasticy (although light) and ultimately the image looks less filmic and more "video-ish" to me, much like the GH5. Some ppl like that, it's just a preference thing for me, no hate here. 

Cams like BMD, RED, VariCam, and Arri have a certain "weight" and "depth" to their image, whereas with a lot of the competitor brands the image looks a bit "thin" and "edge-fringed" to me. I struggle to describe the image in technical words but my eyes notice it right away. Perhaps it's because I've only seen "bad" examples online or perhaps it is what it is. 

But hey, it's a wonderful thing that we all have options in the market, so each to their own. 

Like you and I discussed already, it's probably worth waiting a few months. I have this nagging feeling someone is going to drop a bombshell camera this year and give many of us buyer's remorse. IF (a tentatively doubtful if) it's a new NX camera, it's going to crush a lot of competitor's dreams, let's get that straight. And hopefully this time the industry won't lynch mob it like they did with the NX1. 

On 1/26/2018 at 9:34 AM, webrunner5 said:

I don't see what is wrong with the 80D you tested here at the end compared to the 1DC softness wise. And surely it would weight less. And to have DPAF, seems like a winner to me. Trouble is you have to have both. No 4k in the 80D is just stupid on Canon's part in this day and age.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrC5pZ2ZWtaczUAzts0nIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBncGdyMzQ0BHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEdnRpZAM-;_

Interesting that you can do a 4k time lapse on a 80D though. A damn good looking one at that!

 

The sky looks rich in this. 

[jonpais]

@Matthew Hartman I read your comment with great interest up until your last statement about the industry lynch mobbing the NX1. Could you clarify?

[Matthew Hartman]

18 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@Matthew Hartman I read your comment with great interest up until your last statement about the industry lynch mobbing the NX1. Could you clarify?

It's nothing quantifiable, more a perception I and some other NX1 owners have. In particular a lot of pretty reputable online reviewers where either hostile or sarcastic towards Samsung's entry into the DLSM market, and I felt they were very hard on the camera whilst giving lessor (but more well known brands) cameras flying colors. It seemed a bit "intentional".

Of course, it makes sense to be skeptical, but we're talking Samsung here, one of the most profitable tech companies on the face of the planet, that trumps Canon, Nikon, Sony and Panasonic put together. 

I don't want to fanboy out too hard on the NX1 because it is not a perfect camera. But it definitely didn't deserve the hate it received from some of the industry. The camera still competes well with other mirrorless systems in 2018. And certainly our very own Andrew Reid is a big fan too.

*EDIT*

Trust me, it's not lost on me that no one hurt the NX1 worse than Samsung themselves. 

[jonpais]

i

[IronFilm]

42 minutes ago, Matthew Hartman said:

It's build is very plasticy (although light)

The EVA1 has a magnesium frame underneath (not cheap, but tough! And very lightweight metal for its strength), then plastic coverings to even further reduce the weight. All in all making for one incredibly lightweight cinema camera in the hand! And one you shouldn't need to worry about how "tough" it is.

[jonpais]

45 minutes ago, Matthew Hartman said:

And hopefully this time the industry won't lynch mob it like they did with the NX1. 

If it’s not too much trouble, could you post links to some of these reviews?

[IronFilm]

44 minutes ago, Matthew Hartman said:

Like you and I discussed already, it's probably worth waiting a few months. I have this nagging feeling someone is going to drop a bombshell camera this year and give many of us buyer's remorse. IF (a tentatively doubtful if) it's a new NX camera, it's going to crush a lot of competitor's dreams, let's get that straight. And hopefully this time the industry won't lynch mob it like they did with the NX1. 

Indeed, NAB is not far away as it is in early April. 

But then once NAB rolls round, and IF a camera is released which blows our socks off (next to zero chance that is from Samsung), we might very well have a few months to wait until it ships? Then unless you want to take the big risk of being an early adopter, you have a few more months to wait out to see independent reviews published and read user reports of it in practice. By this point in time, oh hey, 2019 NAB maybe isn't that far away.... and so the cycle carries on forever!

 

31 minutes ago, Matthew Hartman said:

It's nothing quantifiable, more a perception I and some other NX1 owners have. In particular a lot of pretty reputable online reviewers where either hostile or sarcastic towards Samsung's entry into the DLSM market, and I felt they were very hard on the camera whilst giving lessor (but more well known brands) cameras flying colors. It seemed a bit "intentional".

 

Yeah I saw that too :-/ 

If not for EOSHD's forums I'd probably never have taken a serious look at the NX1! (leading to purchasing a NX300 dirt cheap, thinking I might next buy a NX1 and keep the NX300 as a dirt cheap B cam on the side. Although that never panned out)

[Matthew Hartman]

19 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Indeed, NAB is not far away as it is in early April. 

But then once NAB rolls round, and IF a camera is released which blows our socks off (next to zero chance that is from Samsung), we might very well have a few months to wait until it ships? Then unless you want to take the big risk of being an early adopter, you have a few more months to wait out to see independent reviews published and read user reports of it in practice. By this point in time, oh hey, 2019 NAB maybe isn't that far away.... and so the cycle carries on forever!

 

This is true. 

19 minutes ago, jonpais said:

If it’s not too much trouble, could you post links to some of these reviews?

https://***URL not allowed***/lab-review-samsung-nx1-video-mode-frustrating/

https://youtu.be/Xoqt5w3n9iQ?t=17m