2018 - The year of the VDSLRs?

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, andrgl said:

Data rate for 4K raw with Blackmagic cameras is over 250 MB/s

I'd be fine if it was only ProRes

But the odds of Blackmagic releasing a non-raw camera are close to nil. 

[mkabi]

On 1/1/2018 at 2:35 PM, mkabi said:

Blackmagic... Boy oh boy... Can't wait to see what's up their sleeves. It's going to be one hell of an ace of spades.... 

I said it... didn't I?

Anyway.... I'm super happy.

But there has been some suprises so far... A73, X-H1, Z2 - Didn't see those coming.

Still want to see what the other guys going to do to compete with the New Pocket 4K.

I'm sure people at RED going - WTF???? 4K/60p RAW at $1295????

[IronFilm]

I'm seeing online people sell their URSA Minis and GH5/GH5S for a BMPCC4K instead. It is happening!

Bit premature though as won't ship until September 

[mkabi]

19 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Bit premature though as won't ship until September 

True, but if you can wait.... you can get better prices for the equipment that you are using now.... versus the prices for your equipment in September.

[Kisaha]

56 minutes ago, mkabi said:

True, but if you can wait.... you can get better prices for the equipment that you are using now.... versus the prices for your equipment in September.

..and you are working with what, until September? Rent? Isn't this going to cost as well?

I really doubt that many people will get them at September, some may - definitely not a lot, and trying to catch up with unlimited pre-orders is not a good omen for quality control.

This is not going to be unanswered by the big companies also.

[kidzrevil]

The a7siii is going to be a monster I can feel it. I totally agree with you on it being the year of the vdslr and I think its because hybrid features are neccessary in the professional environment especially for journalists. The gh5s,sony a7iii & the new blackmagic shows me even though cinema cameras have their place, dslr for video is still a viable option

[kye]

10 hours ago, mkabi said:

I'm sure people at RED going - WTF???? 4K/60p RAW at $1295????

They won't be the only ones!!

[webrunner5]

56 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

The a7siii is going to be a monster I can feel it. I totally agree with you on it being the year of the vdslr and I think its because hybrid features are neccessary in the professional environment especially for journalists. The gh5s,sony a7iii & the new blackmagic shows me even though cinema cameras have their place, dslr for video is still a viable option

Its going to be damn hard to sell a Sony A7s mk III for over 3000 bucks, it just is I don't care what it has in it. They were probably happy as hell to see Panny, Oly and Fuji push up the price to 2000 bucks and more, but now, shit.

I mean people that have a lot of Sony FE lenses, well they will buy it, they are in it for the long haul. And they can probably afford to buy the BMPCC 4k to boot. But it has to hurt sales on it.

It just proves to me how cheap you can really make a damn good camera in this day and age. If I paid 3 grand or more now I would feel like I am getting raped with this BM announcement.

[kye]

5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

It just proves to me how cheap you can really make a damn good camera in this day and age.

I disagree.  Canon made many damned good cameras (once their potential is unlocked with ML) and at very reasonable prices.

The BMPCC is still excellent value for money, but not because BM managed to make hardware for that price, it's because they were willing to unlock the potential of the hardware.

[webrunner5]

48 minutes ago, kye said:

I disagree.  Canon made many damned good cameras (once their potential is unlocked with ML) and at very reasonable prices.

The BMPCC is still excellent value for money, but not because BM managed to make hardware for that price, it's because they were willing to unlock the potential of the hardware.

Canon made a cheap camera with ProRes, Raw? Canon fell into a Good pile of shit Only because of ML, not because they were giving it out. Canon, Jesus BM is so far ahead of Canon on not F ing people it is crazy. I am embarrassed to say the same two companys in the same sentence.

You think Apple just gives the ProRes to BM. They have that cost over Canon to overcome also. Yeah Canon is just doing all of you a big fat favor to gimp their Codecs, Gimp their Sensors and sell you a 5D mk IV for 3400 bucks.. The Cool Aide stand is over there, in Canon land.  If I was a Canon exec I would slit my wrists today.

But like I have said, I can't afford several different systems. I can see this as a hell of a great learning tool, and a fabulous way to output it with on the cheap. Why not.

[HockeyFan12]

29 minutes ago, kye said:

I disagree.  Canon made many damned good cameras (once their potential is unlocked with ML) and at very reasonable prices.

The BMPCC is still excellent value for money, but not because BM managed to make hardware for that price, it's because they were willing to unlock the potential of the hardware.

Canon is known for consumer-friendly and super reliable, conservatively-spec'd products. That reliability is why they charge a premium.

Maintaining that premium requires that most of their cameras are easy to use and extremely reliable. That's their brand. ML raw is not consumer-friendly or super reliable. (Yes, I've used it.) And it requires CF cards that are a bit faster than are widely available for reliable recording, at least it did when the Mark III was first released. It's not something Canon wants associated with its brand, crazy as that seems.

Meanwhile, Black Magic is known for cutting-edge innovation at all costs, and good price/performance with some bugs. The bugs are the cost of their crazy low prices.

And other than their Linux Resolve machines, they have a poor history when it comes to ease-of-use and reliability (think issues with magenta shaded corners, FPN, poorly shimmed mounts, bugs in beta Resolve releases, short battery life, poor ergonomics, etc.).

I don't think it's a matter of one company offering more or one company offering less so much as it's a matter of different segments in a market. For most people on this site, preferring what Canon offers is basically unthinkable. For most wedding videographers, however, a C-series camera might be just the ticket, and every professional photographer or entry-level photographer I meet still shoots Canon or Nikon, often with older lenses or kit lenses.

Whereas the A7S or A7R or GH5 is targeted toward a more tech-friendly niche audience. I see a lot of them, but never among seasoned pros (maybe as a b camera) and never among total newbies. That middle ground (enthusiasts) is where the Black Magic cameras fit in especially well.

It's a different market, and I think the market most people on this site find themselves in. If you're in that market, Canon won't offer what you want at the price you want. Not ever. The pro market is higher margin and the low end market has more unit sales. (I think their market position is actually pretty good, but that's just my opinion I am terrible at business, unfortunately for me.)

Meanwhile, BM won't offer what I want at any price. I'm fine with 1080p, 24fps, etc. but I'm super lazy and don't want a short battery life on any camera that I can't hire a crew to swap batteries for, etc. and a poorly shimmed mount or Resolve issue or SD card dropping frames would ruin my day completely. That might sound crazy, but I just don't care about 4k, in fact I would rather not have it if given the option because it slows things down or requires an extra transcode for 1080p delivery.

(HFR and internal ProRes is cool, I admit!)

So I agree with you, but at the same time I don't think either of us should wait up for something that's never going to happen, nor do I think it's a matter of crippling something so much as marketing something based on specs/final output for emerging brands or based on brand/user experience for established ones.

It's very similar to the Red/Alexa debate on the high end, which will never be settled. (But I would take Arri ten times out of ten.) Just buy what you want and don't proselytize to others.

Just my 2 cents....

This camera looks sick btw. Like super awesome, even if it's not for me.

Lastly, a truly groundbreaking product can shake up brands at every level. But for an example of that, look to the iPhone, which is the ultimate in user experience over specs. I use my iPhone camera 100X more than my other cameras.

[webrunner5]

Well you surely are free to do what you want to do. But from this day and age there is no way in hell I am paying over 2 grand new for any DSLR Mirrorless camera ever. BM has changed the market yesterday forever. Sure it is not as full featured as most people would like. It is an odd duck as they say. But this is damned near a FS5 for 995.00. And for what it is missing doesn't cost thousands more to manufacture.

BM had proved you can make money and charge peanuts compared to what the rest have charged. We have been ripped off like it or not for years apparently. It isn't ever going to be the same trust me pricing wise.

15 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

This camera looks sick btw. Like super awesome, even if it's not for me.

 

It is not for the Vast majority of people. Not even a lot on here. But it is what it has for the cost is why it's important. It is groundbreaking in more than one way. This camera kicks the big boys in the crotch LoL.

[kidzrevil]

39 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Its going to be damn hard to sell a Sony A7s mk III for over 3000 bucks, it just is I don't care what it has in it. They were probably happy as hell to see Panny, Oly and Fuji push up the price to 2000 bucks and more, but now, shit.

I mean people that have a lot of Sony FE lenses, well they will buy it, they are in it for the long haul. And they can probably afford to buy the BMPCC 4k to boot. But it has to hurt sales on it.

It just proves to me how cheap you can really make a damn good camera in this day and age. If I paid 3 grand or more now I would feel like I am getting raped with this BM announcement.

After seeing what blackmagic did with the new bmpcc I can see that. Hell even before that I knew the prices of cameras from companies like sony were super inflated. I doubt the tech in their cameras cost that much to put together. Their profit margins are probably insane ! Blackmagic which is a tiny company in comparison to the giants and are putting together cheaper cameras retail wise that have insane specs. They are even smartening up and adding photo features which is a sign to me they are eventually going to make a full blown hybrid camera and thats going to prove problematic for companies like Sony. Sooner than later its going to be revealed that these price points are super inflated as we see the abundance of options making its way to the consumer - prosumer market

[HockeyFan12]

16 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well you surely are free to do what you want to do. But from this day and age there is no way in hell I am paying over 2 grand new for any DSLR Mirrorless camera ever. BM has changed the market yesterday forever. Sure it is not as full featured as most people would like. It is an odd duck as they say. But this is damned near a FS5 for 995.00. And for what it is missing doesn't cost thousands more to manufacture.

BM had proved you can make money and charge peanuts compared to what the rest have charged. We have been ripped off like it or not for years apparently. It isn't ever going to be the same trust me pricing wise.

I'm actually with you on that. I only own dirt cheap gear, because I'm an enthusiast like most people here, and have limited disposable income.

Would I pay more? Not unless I could amortize it in six months of paid work. If I wanted something better for a personal project, I'd just rent, and I probably wouldn't even bother. The entry level is absolutely good enough for anything except Netflix and BBC, but you do have to pick your poison (bad specs for a Canon or a learning curve for BM).

I just have different taste in poison. 

But I don't see it as a rip off with established brands. I see it as a high premium for CaNikon for user experience over specs, and up to the informed consumer to make his or her own choices. Granted, probably only 0.1% of this board agrees with me, and I only really disagree with you in terms of Canon's business savvy, which I think is pretty strong. The rest is subjective.

Meanwhile, I see the iPhone as the most disruptive product line and real threat to CaNikon.

[webrunner5]

Out of likes. I could not have said it better. It is almost always some small ass company that comes in and Kills the big boys asleep at the wheel.

[sanveer]

There is a certain charm in a small company shaking up the market. And Blackamagic seems to have done just that.

I hope the big boys are forced to shave off atleast a few hundred dollars off their prices. 

[webrunner5]

16 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I'm actually with you on that. I only own dirt cheap gear.

Would I pay more? Not unless I could amortize it in six months of paid work. If I wanted something better for a personal project, I'd just rent, and I probably wouldn't even bother. The entry level is absolutely good enough, but you do have to pick your poison (bad specs for a Canon or a learning curve for BM).

Yeah but you don't have to output in Raw, the higher ProRes stuff is super good codec wise. There is a lot of options to ProRes. And it runs well on Apple stuff.

 And heck they said you can even bake in your LuT in camera, I would assume in Raw also?? You just have to goof around like you would if it was a single photo like in Photoshop or Lightroom for Raw, I know the big boys go frame by frame but heck we are not going to do that unless you screw up pretty big time, and only then in certain scenes. These guys using ML on here are shooting in Raw. Big learning curve no doubt but not crazy hard..

[HockeyFan12]

17 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but you don't have to output in Raw, the higher ProRes stuff is super good codec wise. There is a lot of options to ProRes. And it runs well on Apple stuff.

 And heck they said you can even bake in your LuT in camera, I would assume in Raw also?? You just have to goof around like you would if it was a single photo like in Photoshop or Lightroom for Raw, I know the big boys go frame by frame but heck we are not going to do that unless you screw up pretty big time, and only then in certain scenes. These guys using ML on here are shooting in Raw. Big learning curve no doubt but not crazy hard..

That's true. ProRes would definitely be my codec of choice on any camera, unless I was shooting long events.

I used ML raw for a while. Nice footage, but it was a lot more work than I wanted to do for long events and I had reliability problems. I'm honestly surprised Canon added raw to the C200. Probably because the C300 Mk II sold poorly.

I guess my point is just that Canon's not going to even try to compete with this because they're aiming for totally different markets. I don't think they're failing, just failing in the enthusiast market. So if it works for you, don't wait up on Canon. BM has really very nice color, too.

[kidzrevil]

53 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Out of likes. I could not have said it better. It is almost always some small ass company that comes in and Kills the big boys asleep at the wheel.

Absolutely. It seems to me the name of the game ! Im all for it

[Robert Collins]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Its going to be damn hard to sell a Sony A7s mk III for over 3000 bucks, it just is I don't care what it has in it. They were probably happy as hell to see Panny, Oly and Fuji push up the price to 2000 bucks and more, but now, shit.

I mean people that have a lot of Sony FE lenses, well they will buy it, they are in it for the long haul. And they can probably afford to buy the BMPCC 4k to boot. But it has to hurt sales on it.

It just proves to me how cheap you can really make a damn good camera in this day and age. If I paid 3 grand or more now I would feel like I am getting raped with this BM announcement.

Overall I think Sony are fine. They are in the big sensor market with the A7 - cos they sell sensors. With hybrid ILCs they are very well positioned - their stills are pretty much second to none and they have a strong competitive advantage here. Their video scores as 'good enough' for most prosumers - ok ibis, decent af and no/little crop factor (And certainly good enough when compared to their FF competitors.)

But when it comes to the video only/mostly crowd I think it is fairly obvious that FF isnt the sweet spot. You cant currently fit 4k/60, 12 bit raw etc into a small body with a big sensor. So I dont know where this leaves the A7s series or where there is even room for the A7siii especially as Sony chose not to cripple the video in the A7iii.