Panasonic GH5S 4K / 240fps low light monster

[IronFilm]

Just now, webrunner5 said:

Yeah a Sony F3 is a Wide ass camera. I think it has a beautiful shape to it.

I wish it was EVA1/C100/FS5 form factor however. 

1 minute ago, mercer said:

Iron, may I call you Iron, it seems like you are creating unrealistic scenarios to defend your position. I read your DOF argument the first time and it’s just... unrealistic... if you’re shooting in extremely low light, you will do what you have to do to get the exposure... faster lens and then step back to get the focus you want. It wouldn’t be ideal but that is the circumstance you are in... otherwise you would bring in lights and then the a7s would still have a two stop advantage.

You can call me David if you wish :-) Or Iron! Or IronFilm! Don't care :-P

As I've said many times, a7S doesn't have an overall two stop advantage. Sensor tech / processing matters far more. 

You're talking about an extreme scenario where it is "do anything to get the shot", such as opening up wider with the F stop (and wider focal length too perhaps), and changing the entire lighting scheme. 

I'm talking here from a practical scenario that commonly happens on film sets over and over again all around the world. 

There is a creative choice in the DoF that is picked which is appropriate for the story to be told and the director's vision (so DoF is then fixed, or at least the "DoF range", unless you get *forced* off it due to technical/logistical issues), how you achieve that with a 4/3" sensor or a Vista Vision one doesn't really matter in the long run. You just then select appropriate lenses to then achieve this. 

But my additional point, is that in this selection of lenses for that chosen DoF, you put on the back foot when using an a7S vs GH5S (or a S35 camera) as you'll have to set the lens now to a higher F stop. 

[webrunner5]

I really don't know much about Shallow DoF. I am a old ENG guy. We wanted Large DoF out the Ass LoL. And I would doubt having pin thin DoF would not be to desirable in a film. And most films are shot on PL lenses and hardly and of them were fast as hell then. T 2.8 and above.

But I do realize a lot of movie have snap focus in them, so they must want some sort of Thinner DoF for that.

[Django]

Concerning the EVA1 comparisons, have a look at the following video at around the 20mn mark, there is talk/footage comparing GH5 to EVA1 IQ specifically regarding DR, color, detail, motion & sharpening.. 

the difference is pretty drastic imo (EVA1 owners shouldn't have to worry about their investment!)

[Thpriest]

3 hours ago, jonpais said:

May I ask - have you ever shot with a camera that had IBIS?

Yes, I have the GH5 and the GX85. I also have the Canon C100 and Canon lenses.

I really like the IBIS on the Panasonic cameras but I have had some situations where the GH5 lacks lowlight ability, even with the Speedbooster and the Sigma 18-35 F1.8 (1.2) and the Voigtlander f0.95. There are ocasional situations when I need 6400-10000 ISO. Mainly events where it's impossible to light. I like to go light so I'd prefer a GH5 to my Canon C100 (a camera which I love but it's heavy and an awkward shape to stick in a backpack). So I'm wondering whether the GH5s with a Speedbooster and Canon f2.8 (f2) zoom lenses with IS would be better in lowlight than the GH5 with the Speedbooster and the Sigma f1.8 (1.2) zooms. I'm aware that in lens IS is not as smooth as IBIS but I have a lot of experience shooting handheld with a lens with IS and it's doable (but not as enjoyable as IBIS!). As an event shooter that would be an interesting test to see as far as I'm concerned.

[Stab]

Does anyone know what the new crop factors will be for the GH5s with the multi-aspect sensor?

Will it also have a lower cropfactor and thus a wider FOV in 16:9 mode? And what about C4K mode?

 

[Snowfun]

4 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Only poor folk need ISO 25,000 in reality. 

Next time I’m standing out in -30 filming the aurora borealis at ISO 25000 I’ll console myself with the knowledge that I’m impoverished... 

There are times when a high ISO makes a genuine difference - I’m not interested in the GH5s until Sony have confirmed what they might do with the A7s3 (or I persuade myself that I can afford a C200).

[Mmmbeats]

11 hours ago, noone said:

Agreed they are both great but

Usability, no it is a bit subjective with things favouring each and depends on what use you have in mind.

Reliability.    Again, subjective.     I have never had any issue of reliability with my A7s in a couple of years use.

Portability?   Both are around the same size and both can be made big or small as systems. (original A7s is actually smaller).   

Adaptability, well any lens you can use on the GH5 CAN be adapted to the A7s but not the other way around (though M43 lenses can be pointless adapting to the Sony mostly).

For many people, I would think the GH5 would make more sense than an A7s and especially for video in daylight/controlled lighting but for others (me included), the A7s is a better camera so far. 

Usability - yes it's subjective, but having used both systems I can say that they are streets apart in terms of the ease of use of the menu buttons, function set, and general workflow.  This is a general Panasonic advantage over Sony I think (I'm no fanboi, I know full well that Sony have their own advantages - but making their gear easy to use hasn't generally been one of them in my experience).

Reliability - I've experienced no reliability problems with either system, but all the overheating stuff I've read about would seriously concern me if I was a potential owner.  Also, I'm referencing things like battery life, which I've always found better to manage on the GH5.

Portability - Real world use, the a7S is almost always going to be a bigger, heavier package because of the full-frame glass.

Adaptability - there's no incentive to adapt down from FF.  GH5 users adapt all kinds of lenses, all the time.  Again, real world usage, the GH5 is going to be more usefully adaptable by far.

a7S wins for low light (obviously).  Picture quality I don't think there's much in it.  I'm always happy with the results I get, and always see fantastic footage around from both systems.  Sensor size is completely meaningless to me, and I don't understand why other shooters are hung up on it (bearing in mind that the GH5 produces stunning images, and can be made to shoot extremely shallow DoF if required).

[IronFilm]

44 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

There are times when a high ISO makes a genuine difference - I’m not interested in the GH5s until Sony have confirmed what they might do with the A7s3 (or I persuade myself that I can afford a C200).

If you wait until the a7Smk3 is announced (which who knows is when... might not even be this year! Maybe. Maybe not) then you will have to wait for the GH6 which is just around the corner... but after that comes out, you'll wonder if you should wait for the GH6S? But then after the GH6S, perhaps wait and see what happens with the a7Smk4? And so the cycle never ends...

[Fritz Pierre]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Exactly. And that is the original GH5 which comes out ahead of the a7Smk2

Yes, twice as much light falls on a FF sensor than a 4/3"
And people repeat this over and over as if somehow this is an automatic trump card which wins the argument. 
When this is very clearly false!!!

Even a super simple test of this statement shows how outrageously false it is. 
Compare say a 5Dmk2 video vs a GH5 (the original! Forget about the GH5S for now).

Clearly clearly the GH5 is doing better in lowlight than the 5Dmk2. You'd have to be blind to say otherwise. 

So hopefully that makes it super clear it is not just about the amount of light which falls on the sense. As rather arguably what is more important is how the light is used by the sensor!

It might almost be best to forget about sensor size (as it is the sensor engineers who need to worry more about that than us), and just focus on the resulting image instead! :-)

 

 

I basically almost NEVER give a downvote. But was forced to join @jonpais here and do the same! 

As SERIOUSLY? Have you even shot with a RED ONE any time in the last couple of years or so? I have, on quite a few shoots (usually sound department, but sometimes as DoP too). Never by my "choice" though! ha

Under the right conditions the R1 can be nice (but so can almost any camera....), but the lists of cons for the R1 is so extensive! That for 97% of users here the R1 would be a bad choice indeed. 

 

Heck, even I'd rather shoot with a BMPC4K + URSA Mini 4K combo than shoot with one RED ONE MX. (which the two cameras together secondhand would cost similar, or less, as what a RED ONE does)

And the 4K sensor BMD used in them was the worst BMD ever put out!



 

Interesting fact in the discussion on DR and the manufacturer's DR chart posted a few pages back...the Red 1 was rated buy Red to have 13 stops of DR but after being used by DPs for a few months, was assessed at a more realistic 9.5 to 10 stops....Steven Soderburg and David Fincher started using them immediately so this can also put the DR argument to bed re image quality in the right hands...for run and gun that of course changes...re the EVA and GH5s....the EVA is a 14stop DR camera....perhaps a bit more, as Panasonic tends towards rating DR conservatively...the GH5s is said to have a 14bit sensor but the processor uses 10bit in its internal recording (still an unequalled feat in a body this size, though often overlooked in the discussion....if one graded the 10 bit image one understands the sicnificance)...the GH5 and the GH5s share 12 stops of DR BUT the GH5 stays at 12stops at 2500 ISO which is huge in itself...but as exciting as the camera is, I would not put it in the EVA's league (if not for the moronic EF mount, I would have bought one)...the EVA will turn out an incredible cinema camera for the price....and the GH5s currently drops 9frames of timecode sync every time you turn it off or change the battery...this can no doubt be fixed in a FW upgrade, and lastly, I will no doubt buy one, as I think owning a GH5 AND GH5s will give me the perfect camera for $4500 ??

[Fritz Pierre]

I would also point to a very important observation by @AaronChicago...having a camera that can shoot in the dark can be a novel concept as with the A7s years ago, but beauty in Cinematography comes from light and how a good Gaffer shapes that light....being able to shoot in the dark may work for a brief emergency shot you have to get (referring to narrative of course) but as ugly as a midday image without the correct shade and bounce is, the equivalent is true for shooting practically in the dark...just the other side of the spectrum to shooting in noon sun...the image in both cases is flat and uninteresting...it's light in whatever form you use it, that creates the beautiful imagery we drool over in the Cinema...the camera comes fairly far behind that...that's maybe the biggest reason for me not rushing to get in a pre order....I don't shoot in the dark and the GH5 gives me a more than adequate night shot, of say cars moving by in a wide city street shot....if there are people in the shot and they are significant to the story, there would be lights too.

[Snowfun]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

If you wait until the a7Smk3 is announced (which who knows is when... might not even be this year! Maybe. Maybe not) then you will have to wait for the GH6 which is just around the corner... but after that comes out, you'll wonder if you should wait for the GH6S? But then after the GH6S, perhaps wait and see what happens with the a7Smk4? And so the cycle never ends...

To some extent point taken. But not entirely. The A7S (with a Shogun) does what I want (there is no “need” here as it’s a hobby). But a 10bit option would definitely be nice. AF is irrelevant for me (focus is on infinity). DoF is irrelevant for me. Battery life is irrelevant for me (I’m using vloks anyway). Ergonometics partly irrelevant as I simply press the red button on the Shogun (although if I have to change a camera setting it is horrendous). One day I’ll drop the Sony in the snow (again) and it won’t switch back on - then I’ll have to buy a new camera. And not a “concept camera” but a real one which, for next winter might well be GH5s, A7Sii/iii or C200 (which would also replace my BMMCCs). So happy to wait and see what comes next but also prepared to choose when the need arises.

[maxotics]

22 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

but beauty in Cinematography comes from light and how a good Gaffer shapes that light.

I say this until I'm blue in the face.  I'd add how a good Gaffer shapes "good" light.  Day-for-night is an example of how cinematographers used good light to get the look they want (as if night) instead of a super grain/noisey image they'd get if they shot in real night.  Another way to say what you're saying, is the only difference between an A7S/GH5S in good light shaped to look, say "romantic" and an A7D/GH5S in low light which is naturally "romantic" is the second will be full of noise.  Both can look equally "romantic" if the gaffer knows his stuff.  Shooting in low light should ALWAYS be avoided at ALL COSTS unless NOISE is what you're after.  I understand most people will use these cameras outdoors, or indoor where they can't control the light.  For those purposes, those cameras fit the bill!  But for studio/set work?  Put your money in lights and modifiers--control light/noise so your camera DOES NOT STRUGGLE, don't become a slave to the camera's signal/noise ratio    

[Cinegain]

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I brought it in because sometimes you need to take it step further with an analogy for a person to really get the hang of it. 

As you are subconsciously realizing, it is not about twice as much light hitting the sensor, but how that light is then USED!

[..]

Yeah, so basically the GH5S is a small penis. But it's not the size... it's what you do with it, right?

[IronFilm]

You're tempting me @Cinegain to use that downvote for a 2nd time! ;-)

[DBounce]

I’m not sure what all the fuss is about... if you love the GH5 you still have the option to buy it/keep it. I have already preordered the GH5S and plan to wield both. I’m not heartbroken about losing IBIS, I have a GH5 for that. 

Those holding out hope for Sony maybe disappointed. The larger sensor combined with smaller body will not bode well for heat. So a A7 series camera will likely lack 10 bit, 4K@60fps and IBIS if this sensor family is adopted... assuming it is a Starvist... which I do not believe is yet confirmed? For my taste a A9 series in “S” flavor makes far more sense.

EVA1: my biggest turnoff, and the reason why I skipped it was poor low light performance. And I know I’m not alone in that thinking. So the GH5S seems like Panasonic’s redemption for the EVA1 in some ways. 

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, Fritz Pierre said:

Interesting fact in the discussion on DR and the manufacturer's DR chart posted a few pages back...the Red 1 was rated buy Red to have 13 stops of DR but after being used by DPs for a few months, was assessed at a more realistic 9.5 to 10 stops....Steven Soderburg and David Fincher started using them immediately so this can also put the DR argument to bed re image quality in the right hands..

 

And yet people will complain over and over about a camera having 12 stops of DR instead of 14+, and call it "not a cinema camera because the DR is too low"

 

[Trek of Joy]

The debates about adding lights instead of bumping ISO's seem to be focused on controlled shooting environments. I don't shoot narrative, just short doc's and events - the only lights I've ever used is for interviews, and then its always a portable key/fill/back setup. Everything else is natural light and whatever is in the room where I'm shooting - I'm pretty much all run-and-gun. Cleaner files at higher ISO's are a big deal at times, that's why after breaking up with Sony and moving to Fuji with the XT2, I did the backslide into the a7sII - its just so much better than everything else in the 12800-51200 range.

After 4 years with the a7s being the low light king, the GH5s looks to have closed that gap significantly, though the false color and color shift above 12800 doesn't look very good to my eyes. The a7sII can easily be found for less than the GH5s brand new - not to mention used - and it still has IBIS. I don't like the price hike combined with deleting IBIS - especially since Panasonic still pretends CDAF is as good or better than a hybrid AF system - combined with the fact that you'll have to float this on a gimbal or glide cam for stable footage. All the noise about "better usability" with the GH5 is just that, noise. Everything needed to shoot on each camera can be setup to custom buttons and control wheels, its not like shooting with the Blackmagic Pocket cam.

Its always good to have options, if you want to shoot at 2.8 with deeper DOF, this is a perfect camera. It'll be interesting to see if Sony releases a aps-c and FF version of this sensor. Would love to see it in a Fuji. Despite being super impressed with the NYC footage, I'm still going to wait and see what NAB brings - its only 3 months away. Blackmagic always has something up its sleeve and Sony will have something new - whether its a E-mount cam is anybody's guess. By then early adopters that don't like the GH5s will be selling them and the Fuji XH1 will be out in the wild. These are good times in the video world though.

[EthanAlexander]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Plus even myself personally, I do like shooting with it! XLR inputs and built in ND filters, plus all the quick easy access buttons and dials on it, really is a nice shooting experience which no DSLR/mirrorless quite has yet.

This this this this this this THIS.

I can't wait until this kind of sensor/processing tech makes it to S35 FSX/CX00 type cams. That's the most exciting part of all this to me.

[jonpais]

noted

[Andy Zou]

They note the sensor as being a 14-bit sensor; was the GH5 sensor not?