Panasonic GH5S 4K / 240fps low light monster

[DBounce]

4 hours ago, Jn- said:

TC has issues ... see from about 13 min. in ...

http://extrashot.co.uk/panasonic-gh5s-first-hands-on-review/

It’s a pre-production unit. So hopefully this is rectified by release.

2 hours ago, Zak Forsman said:

haha, no you're not alone. but that doesn't make it so cut and dry. the GH5S's Venus Engine employs noise reduction at high ISOs that can't be turned off. The EVA1 has a NR option but it can be left off so noise reduction can be dialed in perfectly in post. No doubt the GH5S is a fantastic camera and looks great at these high ISOs, but some flexibility has been sacrificed. And the EVA1 clearly beats it in a number of image categories from color gamut to image detail to dynamic range and highlight roll-off. From the Panasonic GH5S site...

The final judgment will be the image. If NR is good, and doesn’t turn the image to mush while it maintains high IQ, then I’m ok with it. 

I’m honestly hoping this thing pans out. We will know soon enough. Like I’ve said before clean 6400 ISO would be enough to make me happy. Anything beyond that is just gravy.

[Cliff Totten]

3 hours ago, Andy Zou said:

They note the sensor as being a 14-bit sensor; was the GH5 sensor not?

I remember seeing this IMX294 STARVIS sensor spec sheet last summer. I remember thinking;  "Wow, this would make a perfect sensor for a video camera...and it does 14bit readout?..."

Little did I know then, what we all know now.

Yup, its got a 14bit readout.

You can bet that the Panasonic DVX200 will be the next camera with this sensor. That is going to be a SWEET ENG camera. (if Sony allows it to be sold for that purpose, that is)

 

[PannySVHS]

@DBounce, The GH5s will exactly satisfy that need. From what I´ve seen 6400 ISO on the S model  is better than 1600 ISO on the GH5.

[Emanuel]

36 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

I remember seeing this IMX294 STARVIS sensor...

 

Again?? Can you @Andrew Reid clear up if you hold any information on it please? Is this Sony's the GH5S sensor? It doesn't make sense at all with that interview where Yosuke Yamane-san, the Panasonic's head of imaging himself says they got the whole thing there.

 

[jonpais]

@Emanuel In the interview, Yosuke Yamane does say Panasonic developed the sensor. No mention of Sony. ? hmmm

[Emanuel]

26 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@Emanuel In the interview, Yosuke Yamane does say Panasonic developed the sensor. No mention of Sony. ? hmmm

Right Jon! I've also crossed that with the fact Andrew has referred himself to erroneous yadda yadda from rumors before the announcement to conclude that makes too little to none sense at all. I also was convinced about that despite to tend feeling it strange when they are strong competitors, as shows my earlier posting.

Perhaps a sign of good cooperation towards a new technological age not too much tagged by their core business ...?!! *cough cough* :-)

[Zak Forsman]

49 minutes ago, DBounce said:

The final judgment will be the image. If NR is good, and doesn’t turn the image to mush while it maintains high IQ, then I’m ok with it. 

I’m honestly hoping this thing pans out. We will know soon enough. Like I’ve said before clean 6400 ISO would be enough to make me happy. Anything beyond that is just gravy.

 

yep, fingers firmly crossed. I'm looking at it not for the low light sensitivity (I very rarely need to go higher than !SO 2500), but because color appears to have been improved over the GH5. the yellow bias in skintones looks like it may have been rectified. and the highlight roll-off is much more pleasant. but if the sharpening is still too high, or if the lag on the HDMI out is the same, i don't know... i might take a flier on this one too.

[DBounce]

1 minute ago, Zak Forsman said:

yep, fingers firmly crossed. I'm looking at it not for the low light sensitivity (I very rarely need to go higher than !SO 2500), but because color appears to have been improved over the GH5. the yellow bias in skintones looks like it may have been rectified. and the highlight roll-off is much more pleasant. but if the sharpening is still too high, or if the lag on the HDMI out is the same, i don't know... i might take a flier on this one too.

Indeed the highlight roll-off seems pretty nice. As for lag on the GH5, this might be to do to certain monitors and their processing power. I am using the SmallHD Focus and have not experienced any lag on the HDMI.

[Emanuel]

19 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

yep, fingers firmly crossed. I'm looking at it not for the low light sensitivity (I very rarely need to go higher than !SO 2500), but because color appears to have been improved over the GH5. the yellow bias in skintones looks like it may have been rectified. and the highlight roll-off is much more pleasant. but if the sharpening is still too high, or if the lag on the HDMI out is the same, i don't know... i might take a flier on this one too.

Zak, my bet is that overprocessed sharpness on GH5 also comes from its 20MP high rezzed sensor as even anamorphic samples from there show it. So the stuff must be calmer down this time, my guess. Hope not to be too naive here. I've found blur as a good workaround though. Odd to admit it.

E :-)

[Emanuel]

[PS]

Without mention ISO2500 (my fav top end and one of mine too) is one of their natives; BTW this dual ISO stuff is not proper of a consumer device (our old chap Don @webrunner5 is pretty accurate on the spot when properly calls it a game changer) as much as their 10-bit high bitrate codec bonus but now by default with the whole dynamic range at disposal on their high end too, well well... Well tempting.

[RWR]

On 1/8/2018 at 1:15 PM, jonpais said:

Luke Neumann says highlight rolloff is much better.

Would love for that to be the case...especially given higher sensitivity..there will likely be something in the frame that's "hot". If so..that, along with timecode i/o would help in more pro setups.

Timecode is a game-changer in this camera class. Even c200 lacks it. Not just a multicam feature..more often it's for dual system audio crews.

Regarding Panny rep's comment on audio, hard to say whether there is improvement beyond the onboard mic. They need to put the monitoring latency bypass feature back in.

 

[noone]

14 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

Usability - yes it's subjective, but having used both systems I can say that they are streets apart in terms of the ease of use of the menu buttons, function set, and general workflow.  This is a general Panasonic advantage over Sony I think (I'm no fanboi, I know full well that Sony have their own advantages - but making their gear easy to use hasn't generally been one of them in my experience).

Reliability - I've experienced no reliability problems with either system, but all the overheating stuff I've read about would seriously concern me if I was a potential owner.  Also, I'm referencing things like battery life, which I've always found better to manage on the GH5.

Portability - Real world use, the a7S is almost always going to be a bigger, heavier package because of the full-frame glass.

Adaptability - there's no incentive to adapt down from FF.  GH5 users adapt all kinds of lenses, all the time.  Again, real world usage, the GH5 is going to be more usefully adaptable by far.

a7S wins for low light (obviously).  Picture quality I don't think there's much in it.  I'm always happy with the results I get, and always see fantastic footage around from both systems.  Sensor size is completely meaningless to me, and I don't understand why other shooters are hung up on it (bearing in mind that the GH5 produces stunning images, and can be made to shoot extremely shallow DoF if required).

Useability and again, I disagree.      I am no Sony fanboy (I still own cameras made by eight different makers even if I will never use some of them again).    I prefer the A7s for usability to any camera I have had but that is just me and it is subjective.      I have never really had any issues with any camera in terms of useability though, I seem to adjust too all of them.

Reliability, well I have only had three major pieces of gear stop working on me in many years (mainly stills) and that was two Pentax cameras that both bricked BECAUSE of IBIS and a Canon EF L lens.       Never had an issue with Sony  except I did have a POS Sony point and shoot that had a faulty sensor years ago.        Stuff happens and happens to all brands.

Portability, well my real world use I mainly use the SAME lenses on my A7s as I do on my GX7 and will do the same when (if) I get a GH5s down the track.      The A7s is a fraction bigger than the GX7 but a fraction smaller than the GH5s.        Again, to me there is little difference.      I sold most of the native M43 lenses I had and am happy using some native for each and adapting other than that.       

Adaptability.     Again, disagree.     You can use FF or APSC with the A7s and you can use fast primes as zooms for video (and jpeg stills) and you can use smaller format lenses too if you have too.     Every lens I can put on my GX7 (and could put on a GH5s), I can also put on my Sony and use both FF and APSC but I can not mount my Sony E mount lenses to M43. (lenses that require electronics for focus or aperture control can be problematic regardless of the system).

Some APSC lenses cover FF with little or no vignetting too (cheap and cheerful Canon 18-55 IS ii kit lens for instance works FF from about 23/24mm up.

The Sony 50 1.8 OSS lens worked great as a cheap stabilized macro lens FF with 16mm of extension tubes.

Again, it all comes down to need and use.

 

[Chrad]

6 hours ago, Emanuel said:

They could always implement to switch it off as user wishes, isn't it? I'm sorry but I don't buy the technical explanation as second thought.

No actually - IBIS is always active, because the sensor is suspended by springs. When it's turned off in the camera, the system is still operating to hold the sensor still.

[Emanuel]

15 minutes ago, Chrad said:

No actually - IBIS is always active, because the sensor is suspended by springs. When it's turned off in the camera, the system is still operating to hold the sensor still.

Very well, it is not possible to switch it off then. Thanks for the enlightenment.

So you or someone else will convince me now they are unable to supply such 10MP sensor coupled to Dual Native ISO with IBIS 'always active', please?

And that we'll never see it on GH6S in any way other than as from upcoming technology to still develop this or also next year(s)?

;-)

[Chrad]

2 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Very well, it is not possible to switch it off then. Thanks for the enlightenment.

So you or someone else will convince me now they are unable to supply such 10MP sensor coupled to Dual Native ISO with IBIS 'always active', please?

And that we'll never see it on GH6S in any way other than as from upcoming technology to still develop this or also next year(s)?

;-)

Well I can't say we'll never see it, or that it's impossible to do now, but I'd think the two together would be a massive power drain, no? Every Panasonic camera shortened in battery life from their predecessor when IBIS was introduced. GH5 can be powered on for much shorter than GH4. GH5s is only slightly less power hungry than the GH5, suggesting the dual ISO is also a big power drain. If these features were bundled together right now you might be looking at Blackmagic Pocket like battery life.

[Inazuma]

Reading the GH5 facebook group makes me want to barf. So much crying because of the lack of IBIS https://www.facebook.com/groups/pansonicgh5/?fref=nf

If you're doing casual shooting then IBIS is great, but on professional shoots it's no replacement for monopods, tripods and gimbals. 

[Mmmbeats]

I agree that people are going totally overboard, but one thing I'd highlight is that IBIS is not really a replacement for external stabilisation, but what it does really well is eliminate micro-judder, and thereby make hand-held footage a far more viable option. There's no doubt it's a useful facility, but nothing that can't be lived without.

[Vesku]

GH5s is excellent in low light. 

But is it as good as GH5 in iso200? GH5 has very clean image because it down samples from 20Mpixel sensor. GH5s is not down sampling so it may have softer image. GH4 is 100% sensor pixels and it is softer than GH5 which down samples from 5180 to 3840.

[Inazuma]

2 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

I agree that people are going totally overboard, but one thing I'd highlight is that IBIS is not really a replacement for external stabilisation, but what it does really well is eliminate micro-judder, and thereby make hand-held footage a far more viable option. There's no doubt it's a useful facility, but nothing that can't be lived without.

Indeed but it doesn't eliminate camera sway, which I've found to be a huge problem when relying on IBIS and trying to get a "locked" shot

[Dimitris Stasinos]

It is obvious that the reasons they did not implement IBIS in GH5s are clearly technical, although I think it is possible with this new sensor after some minor mods in the body. I respect every technical justification for not implementing IBIS, like: It doesn't fit, it generates heat ,vignetting is introduced etc. But those exaggerated claims like: "We asked the pros and they said NO, IBIS sucks, don't implement this, cinema cameras don't have IBIS, leave this off board please", cmon these are bullsh$t... GH5's target group (i am talking about the majority here) does not mount their cameras on cars, and even if they will, the proper way is to put the camera on a gimbal. How many users have encountered problems with these  "ibis jumps" when using GH5 on a gimbal? I am using this camera every day for almost 6 months now. I have never switched IBIS off, and never encountered these problems that "the same company which produced the freakin camera" reports.  Until last week IBIS was one of the reasons to buy a Lumix, and since last week it is a flow which "professionals users reported to Pana"? GH6 will definately have it, paired with a stupid marketing term like "magnet freeze", and those "reported by pros issues" will vanish. We know this, they know this.