Panasonic GH5S 4K / 240fps low light monster

[Cinegain]

So, these people that can tell motion cadence... is it better without IBIS in regards to that?

[mercer]

34 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

So, these people that can tell motion cadence...

I think most people who can “tell motion cadence” usually notice when it’s not quite right. This is why it’s rarely mentioned in regards to actual cinema cameras.

[PannySVHS]

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

@PannySVHS Watching it now, I'm not too thrilled with the color. May I ask why you watched it in 480p? And why did you watch Robin's video without sound? Is everything okay?

Jon, great 480p delivery is an indicator of great acquisition. Some awesome DVD editions reference to great acquisition. About Robins short, one min without sound, just to see the quality of the visual output alone. Robin did splendid regarding his layout and montage.

[Sage]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Every scene had movement in it, mostly up and down. I don't see how you can tout your GH5 as being ideal the way it is outputting.

I know we are all guilty of moment in videos, but that is why they invented 4000 dollar tripods. I have seen pretty much NO videos out of a GH5 that are rock solid handheld. So it is not your fault totally. But you have a pretty intense video rig and you are still getting movement.

Now I guess to the average person that will watch it they will not notice, but I see it. One problem is you are a old turd just like me LoL. Shake and Bake.

Its that motion that I really like. I put together a 12lb shoulder rig for non IBIS cameras just to get that 16mm shoulder cam look. IBIS retired that rig, and there has been less back pain.

Then again, I have a religion whereby the camera must always be moving; I don't even have a decent tripod

[Emanuel]

1 minute ago, Sage said:

IBIS retired that rig, and there has been less back pain.

They will keep their GH5 model on high. That was their strategy and will work.

[Fritz Pierre]

3 hours ago, DBounce said:

Well since the GH5 is discontinued I guess you will have to hang up your camera bag Oh wait, its not discontinued... All is good in the world again... just keep the GH5 and add the lowlight camera of your choice. 

Why is everyone hating on the GH5S? Would you be happier if all we had was the GH5? 

Do you have a GH5? Honestly, while 3200 can be used if you have no choice, it really is not a great option in my experience. I have my GH5 locked to max 1600 ISO.

I was referring to the shot in the Video you posted....as I have already clarified also in the post you quoted me from, I never go beyond 1600ISO and in a post before that if there were skin tones in the shot, I would light...you may not have read that earlier post, as this thread is now the length of a small manuscript.....in a brightly lit night scene like this, as an establishing shot for my use why not....except 1600 would also be fine for this comparison video...anyway obviously standards and needs differ

[webrunner5]

25 minutes ago, Sage said:

Its that motion that I really like. I put together a 12lb shoulder rig for non IBIS cameras just to get that 16mm shoulder cam look. IBIS retired that rig, and there has been less back pain.

Then again, I have a religion whereby the camera must always be moving; I don't even have a decent tripod

Well I will agree there Will be movement when walking around, even just standing there when Off a Tripod. Heck there is movement, jitterering even on a cheap tripod. And maybe some what I see is motion cadence I am not sure. I am sure him, Jon can do better than I can with his rig, and he being Only in his 60's!

But I want to say this right now, I think Jon's work Has Really gotten Way better in the last, I don't know 4 months or so. He has nothing to apologize for that's for sure. He is sort of the spark plug on here for getting out and doing stuff, and it looks like it has paid off for him to me.

But the IBIS in the Gh5 is Not perfect, the G9 appears to be even better, So I guess it all boils to me is since the GH5s has No IBIS I don't see it as a negative at all. I would have used the GH5 IBIS so little it would be a waste of money to me, I can't stand movement in movies, once you see it you keep looking for it and then the whole thing sucks good movie or not. There is a reason most all movies, and most all parts of it are shot on a tripod. But I am not saying it will Never change and GH5 is a good example of that, but it is not perfect yet.

I would guess for the average person the GH5 is the one to by. But if you are Damn serious about this stuff, I just don't see how you could not have before had a Sony A7s in your bad, and if you are a Panny user now the GH5s. It is a amazing machine form Panny. It is biting on the heals of the EVA1for people that can't afford one.

[Robin Billingham]

@PannySVHS thanks for the kind words. Editing down to 1 minute was hard, it was best at 1:15. I was happy with the gh5 performance between 1600-3200 fir this but i dont think i would go above 1600 at any point on a more serious shoot.

[webrunner5]

49 minutes ago, mercer said:

I think most people who can “tell motion cadence” usually notice when it’s not quite right. This is why it’s rarely mentioned in regards to actual cinema cameras.

I think if it is "consistent" through the whole movie close to right or a bit off it is OK. It is when it is Way off or changes a lot that drives me crazy.

Like I have stated before if the movie is, well the story draws you into to it I don't think you really pay too much attention to the camera work unless it is Wonky, the Audio is the thing that drives me the most crazy if it is Wonky, and I will admit most serious stuff its very well done on both fronts.

[mercer]

@webrunner5 sorry I thought @Cinegain was referring to motion cadence as the way movement looks inside the frame, not necessarily camera movement, but subject movement... the fluidity of a person’s stride or a car driving down the street.

I imagine it has to do with motion blur on a technical level but when it’s off, I notice it... sometimes it’s subconscious, but sometimes it’s a slap in the face. I feel it is a factor that helps make a moving image cinematic or not.

Some cameras have it, others don’t. Sometimes it’s in the settings, I think. I noticed with the FZ2500 that it looked/felt better in all-i, true 24p, with shutter angle set to 180 instead of shutter speed set to 1/50th.

[Damphousse]

5 hours ago, jonpais said:

Not overly fond of bright night scenes that are more intense than direct sunlight. Maybe in small doses? I use lights - in fact, I love having control over lighting - so high sensitivity isn't a big deal to me. 

As a novice that's something I always have trouble with.  Judging how bright a low light scene should be in the final product.  You're right.  Night should look like night.  I tend to over do it with boosting ISO and boosting things in post.  Then you run into noise issue and it really isn't necessary and actually detracts.

[Mckinise]

 

1 hour ago, Cinegain said:

So, these people that can tell motion cadence... is it better without IBIS in regards to that?

I wonder if some of the issues with Cadence have to do with the monitors being used and the settings.  I can see differences in the fluidity of movement.  I have several monitors and televisions.  How the image is being processed and what settings are being used is very important.  The same image on one display or monitor may seem a bit off compared to one of my televisions.

[webrunner5]

7 minutes ago, mercer said:

@webrunner5 sorry I thought @Cinegain was referring to motion cadence as the way movement looks inside the frame, not necessarily camera movement, but subject movement... the fluidity of a person’s stride or a car driving down the street.

I imagine it has to do with motion blur on a technical level but when it’s off, I notice it... sometimes it’s subconscious, but sometimes it’s a slap in the face. I feel it is a factor that helps make a moving image cinematic or not.

Some cameras have it, others don’t. Sometimes it’s in the settings, I think. I noticed with the FZ2500 that it looked/felt better in all-i, true 24p, with shutter angle set to 180 instead of shutter speed set to 1/50th.

Sorry you are right. I quoted instead of should have just made a new statement.

2 hours ago, verduzco said:

43 rumors posted an article with the exact crop factors calculated for the GH5S's sensor. From what I understand, if you want to use a speedbooster with the sigma zoom lenses you'll be out of luck. I hope I'm mistaken though since I primary use my sigma 18-35mm. 

https://www.43rumors.com/exact-crop-factors-caluclated-new-gh5s-multiaspect-sensor/

DPR had this is their quick compare thingy.

"As well as using the maximum amount of pixels and silicon for each aspect ratio (with consequent image quality benefits), this also means that the diagonal angle of view is preserved, whether you shoot 4:3, 3:2, 16:9 or in DCI 4K's roughly 17:9 aspect ratio.

It also means that the GH5S should offer a fractionally wider angle-of-view than the GH5 when shooting video, especially when capturing DCI footage.

The only downside is that the use of a larger region could limit the use of APS-C and Super35 lenses in conjunction with focal length reducing adaptors, such as SpeedBoosters. A 0.71x reducer needs to capture a roughly 30.5mm image circle to cover the GH5S's larger video region, while a 0.64x reducer needs a 33.8mm image circle, both of which are larger than is guaranteed to be projected by an APS-C lens. You'll almost certainly be OK with the 0.71x adaptor, since that's been shown to work with the majority of APS-C lenses but with the 0.64x versions it's likely you'll have to check on a case-by-case basis."

[mercer]

But to quote Cinegain...

1 hour ago, Cinegain said:

So, these people that can tell motion cadence... is it better without IBIS in regards to that?

I don’t think IBIS would/should have any affect on motion cadence.

[Mckinise]

 

At 3:30 in the video he mentions: "GH5 firmware to enhance performance might be developed if there is customer demand."

What are some realistic performance enhancements for the GH5?

Also, what ever happened to 48fps?  It was a noted feature of the Summer 2017 firmware update.

[Cliff Totten]

Does anybody believe that it wasnt technically possible to put this sensor inside an IBIS mount? I suspect it "could" be true but there are other marketing and camera seperation tactics possibly at play here too.

Does anybody "really" believe that Panasonic could not give the G9 longer video recording limit? Or do you think that it really was optimized for dispersion of photography heat vs videographiy heat.

I would argue that the GH5's ability to handle heat generated by 10bit 4k and a 400mbps CODEC writing to two cards at once with unlimited recording is a FAR more challenging heat problem than photographs...,yet its done perfectly well.

Then again, I am nobody to be questioning Panasonic on their public statements or marketing choices. Whatever it is, its not right to question them.

[Vesku]

3 hours ago, Mckinise said:

At 3:30 in the video he mentions: "GH5 firmware to enhance performance might be developed if there is customer demand."

Yes please. Better NR maybe. 

[jonpais]

7 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Jon, there are two features I really miss on the GH5s version: IBIS and the upcoming 4K/60p 10-bit, even though we may workaround that 2nd one and I believe not technically possible yet into GH series but for soon, let's also hope so : ) Lack of IBIS is much more a PITA, unfortunately... 2x GH5/GH5S bodies is the only  solution I find to overcome the trouble. Which means to have the better cinema camera as B camera :-D

Here's their "technical excuse":

 

It’s turning into IBISgate. Hardly a single iPhonedo viewer bought the rep’s  lame excuse, not even the fellow sitting next to him. ? 

[dbp]

Yeah I can't imagine ever ever looking back after using IBIS.

Just got the Zhiyun crane, and now that the honeymoon period is over, I often prefer handheld shooting. Gimbals are great for certain moments, but there's something about the energy and speed of which you can get documentary style footage handheld. I imagine IBIS would be a game changer there.

I don't know if I've ever been in a situation where I'd care about anything beyond a clean 3200 ISO either. Even that's rare. 

[Trek of Joy]

4 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Does anybody believe that it wasnt technically possible to put this sensor inside an IBIS mount? I suspect it "could" be true but there are other marketing and camera seperation tactics possibly at play here too.

Does anybody "really" believe that Panasonic could not give the G9 longer video recording limit? Or do you think that it really was optimized for dispersion of photography heat vs videographiy heat.

No to both.

IBIS on the GH5s would impact GH5 sales, especially with the G9 now in the lineup. There are better m43 cameras for stills than the GH5, the EM1.2 and now the G9, now the GH5s is arguably a better video option unless you want IBIS. They needed more than the sensor to differentiate them. The price increase is the head scratcher for me, whack IBIS, but add the hotrod sensor - sell them both for $2000, not add another $500 to one. Feels like a page from the Sony playbook with the a6300/6500. If they were developed at the same time and the intention was to release the GH5s first as claimed in one of the interview videos posted, its really odd the GH5s wasn't announced or ever mentioned when Panasonic started teasing the GH5 at Photokina in late 2016, or when it was officially announced one year ago. Just like when they fibbed about the GH5 sensor not being a Sony - which was later proven to be a Sony - Panasonic just seems to go all Huckabee Sanders with their explanations. The individuals making talking point decisions are not very good.

The G9 has a pretty wicked burst rate, raw photos at 20fps is more data than its video bitrate, don't buy that one either.

Chris