Panasonic GH5S 4K / 240fps low light monster

[Chrad]

It sounds like a beautiful camera. I don't have a Sony and I've long wanted a low light specialist but I'm very invested in M43. With other cameras to do what this can't (e.g. IBIS, long battery runs) I think it's a great addition to the kit.

It's a specialist camera for specific uses - the richest looking 4K images for controlled productions, and a cam that sees into the darkness on a sticks. Given the power draw of the dual ISO (making the camera only slightly more energy efficient than the GH5, down specifically from the GH4 largely due to IBIS), I can believe that IBIS was cut for heat and energy efficiency reasons. 

[mercer]

So, are we really discussing lowlight and wide depth of field to try and argue that the GH5s is as good as FF... especially the a7s?

[horshack]

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

some of you are confusing me. We now have a 400mbps 10bit VLogL camera that shoots ISO 6400 in lowlight or even 12800 with the same quality regarding noise as the undisputed 4K low light champ A7Sii for a 2500 launch price. At 6400 ISO in lowlight it has better and richer color than the A7S, overall the better lowlight image for CINEMA purposes. You can use all your m43 lenses with it like you have been before. Or aren´t you even a m43 shooter but still argueing? Of course it is worse from 20000 on and much worse from 25600 and even much more so from 51200 on for NIGHTWATCH NO LIGHT purposes. It has  better lowlight than a a6500, so you guys come up with a A7sii. It beats it at 6400iso for Cinema purposes! Stop complaining, please.

@webrunner5 EVA1 has Varicam look due to full VLOG curve holding 14 stops and zero sharpening and noise reduction. GH5s has VLOG-L curve with 12 stops and sharpening going on. One is a 100% Amira, Varicam, Arri quality cinema image, the other is a nice indie cinema image in its own right plus awesome lowlight image and color. I´d say the price is exactely right for both.

@ryne275 hihi, Casey is kewl and using a camera with great autofocus but an image that is technically the same as of 2010.

 

EDIT:

A7Sii is applying a lot of noise reduction and giving us artefacts  from 12800 upwards in low light. GH5s gives a better lowlight image at ISO 6400, same at 12800, slightly less at 20000, 2 stops less at 102400. There is an obvious nonlinearity in the numbers. Both images from 16000ISO  on would rather not be used for cinema projection. GH5s beat it at 6400. At lower ISO it´s even so much better than A7s, it´s not funny any more.

The A7s's compulsory NR doesn't start until ISO 102,400. Any non-typical artifacts you see before that would be from the codec. As for a sensor whose size is just over 1/4 the area of the A7s's performing better than it at ISO 6400, at least in terms of overall noise and detail, all I can say is Pany's marketing is proving very effective then. 

[jase]

41 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

Am I right in saying that the IS in Canon lenses will work with a speedbooster?

true.

[webrunner5]

47 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

yeah, I'm sure someone will eventually. but we have some hard facts we can look to. numero uno being that V-Log L has a limit of 12 stops. In this chart, you can see the difference between V-Log which can hold 16 stops, and the green box that illustrates what V-Log L will do. 

WelI I somewhat agree with you statement on VLog  L. but take a look at the Video with Shawn speaking, and Shawn is one of the top Panasonic guys, at around 13:30 that he say the GH5s is 1 1/2 better at high ISO than the GH5 and the other guy, the Elephant guy, he says it looks more like 2 stops. So you are saying to me the GH5 Only had 10 stops DR and now the GH5s Only has 12.

[mercer]

The key comment is lowlight... the GH5 doesn’t have 12 stops at ISO 6400. So at 6400, the GH5s may have 11 stops... never underestimate the word play of a marketer/salesman.

@webrunner5

[webrunner5]

If this thing is two stops better than the Gh5, and it is than it  has two stops more DR that is pretty much how it works unless you prove me wrong.. A stop is doubling the amount of light. Each Aperture stop is a doubling of light. Same O same O, 1 Stop of DR is a doubling of light on a chart.

And how You are saying the GH5s Only has 11 stops of DR. You have to admit the GH5s is better than the GH5 in low light, hence meaning the GH5 is only 9 or 10 stops. Could be I guess.I doubt it, but..

I guess we will all find out when the big boys do tests with charts and the like.

[anonim]

8 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

If this thing is two stops better than the Gh5, and it is than it  has two stops more DR that is pretty much how it works unless you prove me wrong.. A stop is doubling the amount of light. Each Aperture stop is a doubling of light. Same O same O, 1 Stop of DR is a doubling of light on a chart.

And how You are saying the GH5s Only has 11 stops of DR.

Oh, master, keeping all respects to your experience - sometimes you indeed looks little bit stuborn Besides the fact that half+ of the comparative reviews are fine marketing make-ups (gained toward presenting GH5s in ideal, and its counterpart in not-so-ideal combination of factors), besides the fact that most of us, probably including you, are viewing at the computer or similar 20-ish screen - please respect the fact that Zak Forsman HAS Eva1 and actually works in the field, and that he surely is in the fresher and closer touch with these equipements than rest of us, including you, who judge solely from Panasonic luminaries... I'm user long voted user of Panny cameras, and am trilled buy the GH5s, but let's be more objective... Or it has to be so that you know better what's DR of GH5s even than tatooed Panasonic fan Sean Robinson?

[Zak Forsman]

25 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

WelI I somewhat agree with you statement on VLog  L. but take a look at the Video with Shawn speaking, and Shawn is one of the top Panasonic guys, at around 13:30 that he say the GH5s is 1 1/2 better at high ISO than the GH5 and the other guy, the Elephant guy, he says it looks more like 2 stops. So you are saying to me the GH5 Only had 10 stops DR and now the GH5s Only has 12.

No, when you move away from a base/native ISO, you lose dynamic range the further away you get. With the GH5S, the dual native ISO reclaims those lost stops at 2500, that you would have lost on the GH5 if you were just gaining up from the native ISO 400. So a GH5 at ISO 2500 will have less dynamic range than a GH5S at 2500. But put them both at ISO 400 and they will both be the same. That's the thing many are missing about the dual ISO function. It's less about noise, and more about maintaining equivalent dynamic range at two ISOs.

[webrunner5]

12 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

No, when you move away from a base/native ISO, you lose dynamic range the further away you get. With the GH5S, the dual native ISO reclaims those lost stops at 2500, that you would have lost on the GH5 if you were just gaining up from the native ISO 400. So a GH5 at ISO 2500 will have less dynamic range than a GH5S at 2500. But put them both at ISO 400 and they will both be the same. That's the thing many are missing about the dual ISO function. It's less about noise, and more about maintaining equivalent dynamic range at two ISOs.

Panasonic is delivering its AU-EVA1 5.7K handheld cinema camera, distinguished by a pixel count of 5720 H x 3016 V (17.25 million), Dual Native ISO ratings of 800 and 2,500, and 14-stops of dynamic range. Panasonic is delivering its AU-EVA1 5.7K handheld cinema camera, distinguished by a pixel count of 5720 H x 3016 V (17.25 million), Dual Native ISO ratings of 800 and 2,500, and 14-stops of dynamic range. The highly-anticipated EVA1 has a suggested list price of $7,495..

So if true the Eva1 has 12, the GH5s has 12, hardly worth the difference in price. And that is if 12 is true.  I will buy the GH5s and you can be happy with the EVA1. Seems like a plan. And what you say above also applies to the EVA1. Same exact concept. You have 14 stops at 800 ISO. It works the same for any camera the higher you go up in ISO the less DR you have, Simple as that. That is why they state Base ISO's,

[Zak Forsman]

huh? what makes you think the EVA1 only has 12? It's 14.

What makes the EVA1 worth the price is that it has more dynamic range, more detailed resolution, a much wider color gamut, no lag in the HDMI output, and you're not stuck with sharpening being on all the time.

[Georgios]

@webrunner5 Eva1 has vlog vs vlog-l in gh5 

[webrunner5]

3 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

huh? what makes you think the EVA1 only has 12? It's 14.

What makes the EVA1 worth the price is that it has more dynamic range, more detailed resolution and a much wider color gamut just to name a few.

I never said the EXA1 has 12, it has 14.

[Zak Forsman]

1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

I never said the EXA1 has 12, it has 14.

ok, you typed 12 in your last comment, but I see that wasn't intentional.

[webrunner5]

7 minutes ago, Georgios said:

@webrunner5 Eva1 has vlog vs vlog-l in gh5 

I agree to that. But this is new mo jo so it might not hold true anymore. And if it still does I say the Gh5s has 12 stops and the EVA1 has 14. Not a earth shaking difference especially when it all gets knocked down to Rec 709 with shit DR.

4 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

ok, you typed 12 in your last comment, but I see that wasn't intentional.

And with Raw it should have even more.

[Dimitris Stasinos]

@webrunner5Apart from high iso settings (where a higher base iso like 2500 helps getting wider DR, exactly like Zak said) is there any evidence out there indicating that GH5s will deliver wider DR in daylight and properly lit environments than GH5? From every comparison shot i have seen so far between GH5 & GH5s, DR seems exactly the same, at least to my eyes (and my monitor of course).

[anonim]

4 minutes ago, Dimitris Stasinos said:

@webrunner5 is there any evidence out there indicating that GH5s will deliver wider DR in daylight and properly lit environments than GH5?

No, and it will not be, but who cares? Suddenly, we all are becoming lemurs (MenS)!

[mercer]

Also, the higher DR on the GH5s could be a tweak of the V-Log L curve so more stops are delineated to the shadows, or to the highlights right where the Knee is. Are there any comparisons between the knee and slope of the GH5 and the GH5s V-Log L?

[Cliff Totten]

Yeah...from digging around the web, I'm seeing people say that the GH5 and GH5-S have the same dynamic range too.

This is interesting because if Panasonic is using the STARVIS IMX294 sensor, that sensor has been measured at 13.5 stops in astronomy cameras that its used in today.

This makes you wonder if Panasonic chose not to allow it to have 13.5 stops to protect the EVA-1's 14 stop advantage. If that did happen, than I dont blame Panasonic. The GH5-S already already outperforms the EVA-1 in noise and high ISO. (I dont think the EVA-1 uses a Sony sensor)

Has anybody placed their GH5-S demo on DR charts yet?

[Zak Forsman]

17 minutes ago, mercer said:

Also, the higher DR on the GH5s could be a tweak of the V-Log L curve so more stops are delineated to the shadows, or to the highlights right where the Knee is. Are there any comparisons between the knee and slope of the GH5 and the GH5s V-Log L?

yep, that’s possible. and check this out... this is from the GH5, and recently posted on facebook to make the point that you can adjust the highlight knee, but if you showed these to someone without that info they’d assume one had higher dynamic range.