Panasonic GH5S 4K / 240fps low light monster

[Emanuel]

Jon, one stop and a half of improvement is too tight. Three stops that some of them claim is perhaps too much : )

Somewhere between 2 stops, 2 stops and a half is pretty more accurate as far as I could see from the samples already available.

50 minutes ago, jonpais said:

With the GH5, some photographers would say that ISO 1600 is usable, others ISO 3200. A very few would even argue that ISO 6400 is usable. Now, with the GH5s, reviewers who've had a chance to shoot with the pre-production model are claiming anywhere from 1-1/2 - 3 stops improvement.

 

[jonpais]

@Emanuel So are you saying that at ISO 1600, noise, color and dynamic range of the GH5s should be as good as ISO 400 on the outdated GH5? 

[Emanuel]

40 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@Emanuel So are you saying that at ISO 1600, noise, color and dynamic range of the GH5s should be as good as ISO 400 on the outdated GH5? 

LOL You're good on that one, thanks pal : ) I meant on the high ISOs actually.

Did they ever release the native ISO for GH5? I recall Matt Frazer said not to be allowed to advise on it. So, officially is 400?

Since the native ISO2500 reaches the widest DR on GH5S, ISO1600 is roughly about half of a stop of loss and its DR is wider (2 stops they say?), it should theoretically be better than the outdated GH5, isn't it? ; ) Even though, as I could write to you earlier, practice redefines theory ; ) so as much as chart tests vs shooting real life, everything must be subject to be proved on the field instead before :-)

[jonpais]

ISO 400 is considered to be base ISO on the GH5, afaik. 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

The GH5 and GH5S are both current models. Neither is outdated or replaced by the other.

[Emanuel]

3 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

The GH5 and GH5S are both current models. Neither is outdated or replaced by the other.

Jon in his provocative best ; ) LOL :-)

[Julien416]

2 hours ago, Vesku said:

The new Star Wars movie in 4k theater has added noise which looks like GH5 iso1600-3200.

It is called FILM GRAIN for christ sake !

Star Wars was shot on motion picture film. You know : Kodak, celluloid, grain... Have people really forgotten what film grain looks like ? 

[Fritz Pierre]

@EmanuelI could be speaking under correction here, but I don't recall the GH5s' DR being the greatest at 2500...what I've read is 400 is the cleanest...2500 is noisier but the GH5 does not lose latitude at the 2nd of it's dual ISOs which is 2500....400 which is the 1st and is apparently  cleaner with the same DR....in an extensive article I read the other day, the way it works was described as (with a grain of salt at this stage) if you need above 800, you reset to Native ISO 2500 and dial back to say 1200 if that's required....the Varicam LT has also been described as being the cleanest when used accordingly, and in the old days of the hacked GH2 the ISO bug fix for the hack was to go beyond where you wanted to be, and to then dial back for cleanest IQ....Panny cameras just love getting pampered??

[Simon Shasha]

3 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

My side by side testing showed Fuji APS-C out preforming the FF Sony A7 and A7rii when pushed. So they can claim anything they like as long as the X-Trans keeps delivering such quality.

Hi Mattias,
 

Are your referring to RAW stills performance? I'd love to know more.

I'm looking at jumping ship to Fuji for stills from my Sony cameras (with either the X-T2, or rumoured X-H1).

[Mmmbeats]

Here something that Sean Robinson (Panasonic) said on Facebook, if it helps:

Quote

When shooting LOG or HLG, Low range (Native ISO set at 400) is 320-1600. High range (Native ISO set at 2500) is 1600-25600. HLG can use extended high ISO. 

Outside of Log or HLG, low range (Native 400) is 160-800, and high range (native 2500) is 800-51200

Shooting under Native ISO comes with reducing DR, but cleaner footage, and can be used for creative intent. Shooting over Native increases noise and in the traditional ISO design, reduces DR, but with the Dual Native ISO system in the GH5S, your DR is held higher as you move up the scale when the circut changes to the High range. 

What is also being confused here is Native vs Base ISO. Base is the lowest ISO available before extending. This is typically the photographers preferred ISO to maximize DR and noise when shooting stills. Native ISO for video is the best DR vs sensor noise before gain is applied after the analog conversion.

 

[Emanuel]

46 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

@EmanuelI could be speaking under correction here, but I don't recall the GH5s' DR being the greatest at 2500...what I've read is 400 is the cleanest...2500 is noisier but the GH5 does not lose latitude at the 2nd of it's dual ISOs which is 2500....400 which is the 1st and is apparently  cleaner with the same DR....in an extensive article I read the other day, the way it works was described as (with a grain of salt at this stage) if you need above 800, you reset to Native ISO 2500 and dial back to say 1200 if that's required....the Varicam LT has also been described as being the cleanest when used accordingly, and in the old days of the hacked GH2 the ISO bug fix for the hack was to go beyond where you wanted to be, and to then dial back for cleanest IQ....Panny cameras just love getting pampered??

Yes Fritz, ISO400 is cleaner than ISO2500. I've posted something on topic in another thread even though from another similar camera example but same family (EVA1). I meant on high ISOs instead. As said, both values keep the widest DR; a different department than exactly and strictly noise related.

[Trek of Joy]

8 hours ago, Turbofrog said:

Here's where the logic comes in:

2 x 0.64 = 1.28, similar to APS-H, as you say.

But you're not comparing apples-to-apples if you're using an FF camera to shoot video. Because they have a 3:2 sensor, if you want to shoot DCI 4K, you've actually got a ~1.07x crop factor with any FF camera.

So 1.07 vs. 1.28 is only a 1.2x relative crop factor. Which is of course noticeable, but very small. And given that the GH5S has a much more robust codec than any of the FF video cameras currently available for under $10K, and the new sensor appears to have higher quantum efficiency as well, you can call that 1.2x difference essentially negligible.

How is that possible when the image circle is a constant for m43? Look at the image circle and the various aspect ratios, they all have corners that touch the circle, hence the diagonal is identical. Its 2x relative to FF, always. DCI is no different than 4:3 or 3:2 with that sensor because the image is still coming from within the same image circle - per Panasonic. So yes 2 x 0.64 or 1.28 crop with FF lenses. My previous comment you quoted didn't make any mention about IQ or codecs, just the crop factor with FF lenses and a speed booster. 

chris

[Emanuel]

 

[jonpais]

“Buy one camera to shoot handheld, and another one to shoot in low light? Who in their right mind would want to do that?” ?

[IronFilm]

Thom thinks the GH5S might outsell the GH5:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/panasonic-copies-the-sony-s.html

I highly doubt that, but interesting to read someone who even thinks that is a possibility.

[Robin Billingham]

The regular gh5 is a 2x crop of full frame. If both formats achieve 16×9 by cropping the top and bottom on the sensor(making the sensor smaller) then a 2x crop ratio would be maintained. However on an oversized sensor the 16×9 mode is achieved by using extra pixels available within the imaga circle, no cropping, so the ratio between the formats is changed to a less than 2x crop (in the case of the gh5s). If the full frame sensor was also an oversized multi aspect one then the 2x crop would remain between the 2. In reality this makes the gh5s crop around the 1:86-1:89 mark. Small changes for 16×9 or 17:9 etc 

Or 2x crop for stills in its native format 

[Yannick Willox]

I only just now realized I have been using my GX80 with the old PanaLeica 4/3 14-50mm lens with OIS, and that this is actually how the stabilised footage would look on the new GH5s. Since the GX80 does not use its ibis with the non-dual IOS lenses ?

So, if you intend to use the GH5s only with OIS pana lenses, there should be no "problem" ?

I am seriously looking into the GH5s for concert shooting (tripod, and the occasional handheld shot).

[Cinegain]

3 hours ago, Yannick Willox said:

I only just now realized I have been using my GX80 with the old PanaLeica 4/3 14-50mm lens with OIS, and that this is actually how the stabilised footage would look on the new GH5s. Since the GX80 does not use its ibis with the non-dual IOS lenses ?

So, if you intend to use the GH5s only with OIS pana lenses, there should be no "problem" ?

I am seriously looking into the GH5s for concert shooting (tripod, and the occasional handheld shot).

The GX80 has sensor stabilization, which can always be used. It can work in conjuncton with lens I.S. for Dual I.S. (although, I'm uncertain if it does this with FT lenses with the appropriate adapter, probably not). What it doesn't do with certain lenses that have OIS, is Dual I.S.2! See: http://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/dsc/connect/dual_is.html . Not sure if OIS from FT is supported at all on MFT system cameras; it possibly isn't. Which would mean you might've been seeing the GX80's sensor stabilization in action, which is very effective. Just the thing lacking from the GH5S however...

-- hum, acc. some posts on the ol' interw3bz, OIS of those Panasonic/Leica should work on MFT cameras. But probably stand-alone, not Dual I.S. So, then the question is... did you compare the footage with sensor stabilization on and lens OIS off to sensor stabilization off and lens OIS on and stabilization on & lens stabilization on?

[AaronChicago]

If I'm understanding correctly, DCI 4K with a Speedbooster Ultra will give a near full frame FOV, 1.2?

[Mattias Burling]

18 hours ago, Simon Shasha said:

Hi Mattias,
 

Are your referring to RAW stills performance? I'd love to know more.

I'm looking at jumping ship to Fuji for stills from my Sony cameras (with either the X-T2, or rumoured X-H1).

Yes for raw stills. There is very little noise and when pushed its 99% luma noise which is very easy to remove or plesant to keep.

I often shoot the new Fuji sensor in daylight at iso 4000 just because of the nice grain structure.