Robert Collins Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 20 minutes ago, MurtlandPhoto said: "So I simply dont get 'the sensor is actually larger than the entire imaging circle of a m43 lens' because they are exactly the same sized sensor with exactly the same sized image circle." The effective imaging area is larger than most other m43 chips, thus making the FOV wider on the GH5s. It's minimal but IBIS on this sensor could cause vignetting on native Panny lenses; something they would not want to happen (my opinion). From DPReview: "Well I dont have any evidence apart from the fact the fact that I dont understand why the same size sensor with the same bit rate as the GH5 would have any reason to over heat." Even if those two factors remain constant, there are other variables. The cameras have two completely different sensors with vastly different circuitry. The sensor readout speed is faster and AF is improved (minimally) on the GH5s. Also, anecdotally my GH5 always has run hotter than my GH4. A symptom of IBIS? Maybe. My point is that numerous Panasonic reps have stated their reasonings for omitting IBIS from the camera. I don't understand how so many people think they know better. Well apparently we are using exactly the same source (ie DPreview) to show differing things. The specs say they have the same size sensor, the blurb says that the sensor is 'oversized'. However if it is oversized, it is oversized by 6.7% in area which isnt a lot - not much of a trade off for ibis. In contrast the A7riii is oversized by 300%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurtlandPhoto Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Just now, Robert Collins said: However if it is oversized, it is oversized by 6.7% in area which isnt a lot - not much of a trade off for ibis. In contrast the A7riii is oversized by 300%. Agreed. And that's sort of what I meant above re: the additional features that made IBIS impossible according to Panasonic. I don't believe it's simply the slightly larger sensor; it's the delicate balance of available resources, both hardware and software, that determine the camera's capabilities. I operate under the belief that Panasonic does not artificially cripple their cameras in order to protect margins, however they may have decided that adding the feature would have cost them (and consumers) too much to be viable. There is a distinction there. Regardless, I'm excited for my camera to arrive next week webrunner5 and EthanAlexander 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Robert Collins said: However if it is oversized, it is oversized by 6.7% in area which isnt a lot - not much of a trade off for ibis. In contrast the A7riii is oversized by 300%. It's actually 9.1% oversized. In 4:3 aspect ratio, it has the standard Four Thirds sensor size of 17.3x13.0 mm and 3680 pixels horizontal resolution. In 16:9, the horizontal resolution is 4016, which is 109.1% of 3680. (Source: https://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-g-compact-system-cameras/dc-gh5s.specs.html) 9.1% can be a lot in a crammed body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntblowz Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 4 hours ago, Robert Collins said: And let's face it Panasonic hasnt done well with M43. The attached chart pretty much shows that Panasonic's share of mirrorless has fallen 75% of the past 6 years (while Olympus has remained flat) 'despite' all the innovation Panasonic has brought to the video end of the market. Well on the Video Division Panasonic has been beating Sony 3 years straight Interesting to see that Sony sale peaked in 2015 then fall back afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Gabriel Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 A few weeks later and I'm still really excited about the gh5s. However, I will admit this. Personally, if adding ibis meant wonky vignetting, I'd be cool with writing that off as "character". However, I strongly suspect that most people would rather use the gh5 for ibis without vignetting or trade the ibis for the multi-aspect with no vignetting. I think it's difficult to throw shade on the gh5s' low light performance (particularly when you have depth-of-field concerns). So I'm still giving props to Panasonic for this product. I really hope enough people buy it for it to get an update in the future. 7 minutes ago, ntblowz said: Well on the Video Division Panasonic has been beating Sony 3 years straight And didn't Panasonic own jvc for part of that time? I seem to remember a mft mount jvc camera with a super35 sensor, but I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 8 hours ago, Nathan Gabriel said: I seem to remember a mft mount jvc camera with a super35 sensor, but I could be wrong. JVC LS300: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1096581-REG/jvc_gy_ls300_4kcam_handheld_s35mm.html webrunner5 and Nathan Gabriel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 12 hours ago, Robert Collins said: Well I dont have any evidence apart from the fact the fact that I dont understand why the same size sensor with the same bit rate as the GH5 would have any reason to over heat. Overheating as many more factors than just sensor size! Remember it is a totally new sensor in the GH5S. 11 hours ago, Robert Collins said: Well apparently we are using exactly the same source (ie DPreview) to show differing things. The specs say they have the same size sensor, the blurb says that the sensor is 'oversized'. DPreview gets a lot wrong, in this case the spec sheet is being lazy. Again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannick Willox Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Image sensor size17.3 x 13.0 mm (in 4:3 aspect ratio) Both for GH5 and GH5s. But it is my understanding the GH5 uses the full (width) sensor readout for 4K. This would mean it also uses the full width for C4K. The GH5 sensor is 5184x3888, which is exactly 4:3, meaning the effective width for 4K is 17.3mm. https://www.panasonic.com/be/nl/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-g-dslm/dc-gh5s.specs.html If the GH5s truly has a multi-aspect sensor, it could be 1.42 times wider than the GH5 sensor. (17:9 versus 12:9). We will only know when someone gets one side-by-side with a GH5 and takes a picture ? Following the official specs of both the GH5 and GH5s, sensor widht for GH5s is 17.3 mm for 4:3, hence 24.5 mm for C4K ! IBIS would knock it through the casing if that is the case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, Yannick Willox said: If the GH5s truly has a multi-aspect sensor, it could be 1.42 times wider than the GH5 sensor. (17:9 versus 12:9). Panasonic's own spec page has all the necessary information: Quote from that page: "Image sensor size 17.3 x 13.0 mm (in 4:3 aspect ratio)" "File size(Pixels) -Still Image 4:3 3680x2760" -> 2760 pixels is the maximum vertical resolution of the sensor. "File size(Pixels) -MOV C4K 4096x2160" -> 4096 is the maximum vertical resolution of the sensor. 4096/3680 is 1.113 (or 11.3%) wider. (I stand corrected from my earlier calculation where I falsely calculated with the 16:9 still resolution of 4016x2256). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannick Willox Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 OK, 11.3 % seems right, I was blatantly mistaken when I took the vertical as a constant... So, that is 1.9 mm wider. This should indeed have consequences for IBIS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verduzco Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Kai seems to like it a bit more now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 He still concludes that the GH5s ‘is not for me’. Two other observations: all but two shots are slow mo bcs it’s nearly impossible to get steady handheld shots with no support, especially with a humunguos tele like the one he uses at the beginning (which is child’s play with IBIS); and two, he says his rig isn’t heavy, but I’m shooting with virtually the same setup this morning, and I can assure you that with a cage, Ninja Inferno and two NPF batteries, it sure as hell is! I’ve got a Bright Tangerine Titan on mine though, so that’s going to make it even worse. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Provocative thoughts on IBIS: Terribly overrated. Nowadays no one seems to be able to conceive a shot without it. The point is that with UHD small shakes and jitters instantly reduce resolution considerably. I know. People want to be able to hold the camera body in their hands - a body that's ergonomically unfit to be held that way -, looking casually on the swing-out display. The switch from traditional camcorders (no one wants to shoot with one nowadays) to DSLRs brought the rig industry into being. Rigs never were perfect ootb. You didn't buy a rig and were ready to go. You had to adapt a rig, make it fit in size and angles to your own body and preferred way of shooting (field monitor or rather a bigger EVF?), exercise with it, buy additional parts. There was no in body image stabilization, so designing your personal setup for stabilization was top priority. Additionally, you had to train your muscles and breath (exhale while concentrating). Zen And The Art Of Body Camera Stabilization. Smart technical solutions to compensate for common problems (not enough light, no patience to focus, those things) make us lazy. I doubt very much that they contribute to better images, rather on the contrary. Like I said, deliberately provocative. You can also tell I'm considering the GH5S. Kisaha, DBounce and jonpais 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 If anyone’s got any steady handheld, gimbal or shoulder rig footage shot with the GH5 with IBIS turned off, no slo mo, and no stabilization added in post, I’d love to see it. Not someone else’s footage, mind you - your own! ? That should settle the matter, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froess Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 While IBIS is great, I agree with Axel. In my short video life, I always shot with cameras that didn't feature IBIS and that wasn't a problem. Something like this http://cn.aputure.com/V-Rig-MR-V1 is cheap, light and practical to carry around. If I am to do a shot with a long lens, I know I will need a tripod. But to each his own. I just never was someone who filmed with just his hands, always got some kind of support to minimize extra shakiness. Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 footage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froess Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 https://vimeo.com/208637237 https://vimeo.com/150067275 Mostly handheld, without ibis. Lenses from 12mm to 35mm on the pocket camera. Mark Tincho, jonpais, Emanuel and 2 others 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, froess said: https://vimeo.com/208637237 https://vimeo.com/150067275 Mostly handheld, without ibis. Lenses from 12mm to 35mm on the pocket camera. Wonderful. How I rue to have sold this camera! It sometimes showed the limits of it's resolution, but that's the extend of it. Thanks, froess! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronChicago Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 For everyone in the US. Beach Camera has 6 in stock: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-LUMIX-GH5S-10-2MP-C4K-Mirrorless-ILC-Camera-128GB-SDXC-Card-Bundle/302620677439?hash=item467599153f:g:3voAAOSwfoNab3Vq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 B&H GH5S livestream (as we speak, has been going on for a bit now though, probably re-watchable during/after): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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