Panasonic GH5S 4K / 240fps low light monster

[webrunner5]

5 hours ago, horshack said:

Again, the laws of physics can't be repealed. The A7s's sensor was already at/near the maximum light-gathering efficiency and low read noise potential of bayer sensors. The only way around these limits is a new sensor paradigm (such as RGBW layouts) or more advanced post-acquisition noise reduction, the latter of which is likely what the GH5 is incorporating.

So then how do you explain the GH5s, Magic? I think your law of physics stuff went out the door. This small sensor is as good as a A7s mkII up top 51,000 ISO. It is a better sensor overall.

[Digitaliant]

I was so undecided whether to buy a GH5 or G9 or GH5s ... and I solved all my problems.

I bought the Panasonic Leica Summilux 12mm F/1.4 and the Panasonic Leica Nocticron 42.5/1.2 ... they will add more to my videos and pictures with the GX-80 than those new bodies.

There is always time to buy a new body :D

 

[IronFilm]

6 minutes ago, Simon Shasha said:

The 2-stop boost might be for the Micro Studio Camera 4K only, not the Micro Cinema Camera. I will speak to my contacts at Blackmagic and verify.

Yes, when read this back the firmware  update came out I thought it was only for the Micro Studio (which is of zero interest to me).

 

6 minutes ago, ryne275 said:

why buy this when a7sIII is imminent? hell , even an original a7s makes more sense than this...

Nah, that is nonsense. 

Even the GH5 is is better than the a7S mk2! (come on, ten bit internal! Or 4K 60fps, or waveforms monitoring! So much goodness there)

Am skeptical if the a7Smk3 will catch up with the GH5 original, and the GH5S is a leap ahead! 

Plus the a7Smk3 is guaranteed to cost more. 

[Digitaliant]

 

[mercer]

7 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

So then how do you explain the GH5s, Magic? I think your law of physics stuff went out the door. This small sensor is as good as a A7s mkII up top 51,000 ISO. It is a better sensor overall.

But with an equal aperture, the a7s only needs to be at 12,000 ISO?

[webrunner5]

4 hours ago, sfc said:

After having some time to digest and looking at some footage…

I know it goes against the way they’re marketing it, but the GH5s seems more suited to events and weddings where you don’t have much light control, whereas the GH5 is for more fast paced commercial work where you do (and use manual glass where gimbal work is a nightmare). I see no image quality improvements outside of low light, and I see several downgrades in terms of versatility in what modern producers expect from a stills form factor cam. 

I honestly like that Panasonic have released it, but I think that it should cost a bit LESS than the GH5 if anything…even with the free v-log. 

And despite some hyperbolic comments here, there is no way either camera is comparable to the EVA. In a high end workflow, they are just two different types of b-cam.

I say it is a Better camera than the EVA1. Less noise for one thing. Less rolling shutter, same DR, cost a 1/3 less, weighs less, smaller form factor, does anamorphic, has a multi aspect sensor,  faster HD fps 240 versus 200,  60p in true 4k, need I go on.

Only thing maybe the EVA has over the GH5s is is Maybe can do Raw down the road, but it has the same damn problem the 2DC had, Only 1 damn slot. I doubt many people will take advantage of it because of the cost to use it.

[ryne275]

autofocus still not reliable enough in critical, run-n-gun situations...no wonder why casey neistat ditched it 

[webrunner5]

30 minutes ago, mercer said:

But with an equal aperture, the a7s only needs to be at 12,000 ISO?

For the same DoF or what? This new sensor throws the equivalence stuff out the door now. Somehow , hell I don't know the A7s has to have twice as high of f number to equal this GH5s. I have read so much my mind is wonky. It didn't take much to do that but...  I am telling you this camera has changed the landscape in Video.

[PannySVHS]

some of you are confusing me. We now have a 400mbps 10bit VLogL camera that shoots ISO 6400 in lowlight or even 12800 with the same quality regarding noise as the undisputed 4K low light champ A7Sii for a 2500 launch price. At 6400 ISO in lowlight it has better and richer color than the A7S, overall the better lowlight image for CINEMA purposes. You can use all your m43 lenses with it like you have been before. Or aren´t you even a m43 shooter but still argueing? Of course it is worse from 20000 on and much worse from 25600 and even much more so from 51200 on for NIGHTWATCH NO LIGHT purposes. It has  better lowlight than a a6500, so you guys come up with a A7sii. It beats it at 6400iso for Cinema purposes! Stop complaining, please.

@webrunner5 EVA1 has Varicam look due to full VLOG curve holding 14 stops and zero sharpening and noise reduction. GH5s has VLOG-L curve with 12 stops and sharpening going on. One is a 100% Amira, Varicam, Arri quality cinema image, the other is a nice indie cinema image in its own right plus awesome lowlight image and color. I´d say the price is exactely right for both.

@ryne275 hihi, Casey is kewl and using a camera with great autofocus but an image that is technically the same as of 2010.

 

EDIT:

5 minutes ago, horshack said:

The MFT sensor had room for improvement plus they dropped the MP down to further lower the read noise at High ISO (Sony did the same on the A7s). This means the GH5s likely matches or slightly exceeds the A7s sensor on a per-area basis, which would place it two stops behind the A7s on a full image basis. The rest of the improvement is noise reduction,  including possibly 3DNR although that would have to be measured with careful scene selection. 

A7Sii is applying a lot of noise reduction and giving us artefacts  from 12800 upwards in low light. GH5s gives a better lowlight image at ISO 6400, same at 12800, slightly less at 20000, 2 stops less at 102400. There is an obvious nonlinearity in the numbers. Both images from 16000ISO  on would rather not be used for cinema projection. GH5s beat it at 6400. At lower ISO it´s even so much better than A7s, it´s not funny any more.

[JordanWright]

GH5s + SB XL gets you pretty close to full frame equivilant 

[horshack]

35 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

So then how do you explain the GH5s, Magic? I think your law of physics stuff went out the door. This small sensor is as good as a A7s mkII up top 51,000 ISO. It is a better sensor overall.

The MFT sensor had room for improvement plus they dropped the MP down to further lower the read noise at High ISO (Sony did the same on the A7s). This means the GH5s likely matches or slightly exceeds the A7s sensor on a per-area basis, which would place it two stops behind the A7s on a full image basis. The rest of the improvement is noise reduction,  including possibly 3DNR although that would have to be measured with careful scene selection. 

[webrunner5]

17 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

some of you are confusing me. We now have a 400mbps 10bit VLogL camera that shoots ISO 6400 in lowlight or even 12800 with the same quality regarding noise as the undisputed 4K low light champ A7Sii for a 2500 launch price. At 6400 ISO in lowlight it has better and richer color than the A7S, overall the better lowlight image for CINEMA purposes. You can use all your m43 lenses with it like you have been before. Or aren´t you even a m43 shooter but still argueing? Of course it is worse from 20000 on and much worse from 25600 and even much more so from 51200 on for NIGHTWATCH NO LIGHT purposes. It has  better lowlight than a a6500, so you guys come up with a A7sii. It beats it at 6400iso for Cinema purposes! Stop complaining, please.

@webrunner5 EVA1 has Varicam look due to full VLOG curve holding 14 stops and zero sharpening and noise reduction. GH5s has VLOG-L curve with 12 stops and sharpening going on. One is a 100% Amira, Varicam, Arri quality cinema image, the other is a nice indie cinema image in its own right plus awesome lowlight image and color. I´d say the price is exactely right for both.

No the GH5s has 14 stops. And how do you know sharpening Is going on. I have see two videos with side buy side and I think the GH5s looks better. I am sure we all are a bit wonky with all of this,. It will take a week or two before all the real facts come out, but I agree with you this new camera is as good as a A7s at 25,000 ISO. It is pretty crazy. The Sony then pulls ahead. But who the hell shoots any higher than 25,000.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

About the option to disable sharpening - remember that this camera have an anti-alising filter, hence the sharpness is already a little refrained.

[Zak Forsman]

28 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I say it is a Better camera than the EVA1. Less noise for one thing. Less rolling shutter, same DR, cost a 1/3 less, weighs less, smaller form factor, does anamorphic, has a multi aspect sensor,  faster HD fps 240 versus 200,  60p in true 4k, need I go on.

Only thing maybe the EVA has over the GH5s is is Maybe can do Raw down the road, but it has the same damn problem the 2DC had, Only 1 damn slot. I doubt many people will take advantage of it because of the cost to use it.

3

 

4 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

No the GH5s has 14 stops.

I know this has been debated but I don't see how you get around what we know about the two different versions of V-LOG. EVA1 has 14+ stops of dynamic range and the original incarnation of V-LOG. The GH series' V-LOG L is limited to 12 stops. The GH5S certainly has more useable stops than the GH5, but it's still maxed out at 12. What I believe is really happening is that 2 additional "usable" stops have been reclaimed in the GH5 and used for better highlight roll-off. But it's not a 14 stop range overall.

Here's the EVA1 on a Xyla chart form Adam Wilt's review... https://www.provideocoalition.com/review-panasonic-au-eva1-4k-cine-camera-part-3/

And with regard to RAW, the EVA1 will not do RAW internally. It has two SD card slots and an SDI out for RAW to be captured by an external recorder.

[Emanuel]

25 minutes ago, ryne275 said:

autofocus still not reliable enough in critical, run-n-gun situations...no wonder why casey neistat ditched it 

Who's that guy?!

[JordanWright]

5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

No the GH5s has 14 stops.

https://www.wexphotovideo.com/panasonic-lumix-dc-gh5s-digital-camera-body-1649548/
It says 12 stops here, it would be good to see some dedicated tests for this however

[webrunner5]

15 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

 

I know this has been debated but I don't see how you get around what we know about the two different versions of V-LOG. EVA1 has 14+ stops of dynamic range and the original incarnation of V-LOG. The GH series' V-LOG L is limited to 12 stops. The GH5S certainly has more useable stops than the GH5, but it's still maxed out at 12. What I believe is really happening is that 2 additional "usable" stops have been reclaimed in the GH5 and used for better highlight roll-off. But it's not a 14 stop range overall.

Here's the EVA1 on a Xyla chart form Adam Wilt's review... https://www.provideocoalition.com/review-panasonic-au-eva1-4k-cine-camera-part-3/

And with regard to RAW, the EVA1 will not do RAW internally. It has two SD card slots and an SDI out for RAW to be captured by an external recorder.

Well until we see the same tests side by side neither one of us can prove the other wrong or right. I know you could be right, it would seem logical Panny would not want a lower camera to beat out a higher priced one, but from what I have read it may be true or so damn close who cares..

I would argue this camera is a bigger breakthrough than the A7s was. Is is a little ass sensor doing as good as a big ass senor, so that does defy Physics. But since it is a Sony sensor I can almost bet what sensor the Sony A7s mkIII will have in it. It never ends. And then we will be back to normal Physics. But Sony can't lower the MP count as much as the Panasonic did.

[PannySVHS]

21 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

No the GH5s has 14 stops.

I hope you don´t want me to copy and paste my text after your reply:) VLOGL "only" holds 12stops. It does so still with even better color fidelity than the awesome GH5. It is a nice 12stop image with beautiful cinematic color. If they allow us to turn sharpness off completely we have the first OFFICIAL Lumix cinema camera rivaling the image of cameras with higher dynamic range. Compare the BMCC 4K with its 12 stop dynamic range to the 14 stops of the FS7- the BlackMagic 4K screams cinema, the FS7 screams FS7:)

17 minutes ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

About the option to disable sharpening - remember that this camera have an anti-alising filter, hence the sharpness is already a little refrained.

That´s a great thing. First test chart on slashcam shows almost abscence of sharpness nasties.

[webrunner5]

Jesus Newman just said in his video it has 14 stops, the Camera Store video says it. What Can I say!!

[eleison]

24 minutes ago, JordanWright said:

GH5s + SB XL gets you pretty close to full frame equivilant 

Yes, and compare that combination to an A7Sii.  I'm expecting the Sony to spank the GH5s.  GH5s is trying to compete in a niche that the A7S dominates in.  I don't think this is a good strategy since I doubt the GH5s "can see in the dark" like the Sony.  The GH5s is probably a good camera OVERALL, but It's probably not the A7S killer that Panasonic is marketing the camera to be.

2 things that really hurt:

1) no IBIS

2) no PDAF

... but, it's good in low light.. not the greatest.. but good...  Just my opinion.  The best thing about the sony a7sii for me is that I can "f8 and be there" almost in all lighting situations.  I'm not a professional videographer, I just like to take videos of my kids, and family :-)  I love that quality of the a7sii.  That almost negates the Sony not having PDAF.. hahahahahah.