Cinegain Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 hours ago, Inazuma said: Does anyone else feel it would be a shame if the body was to be as big as the GH5 (which is as big as the d750)? I know that a lot of you are using these mirrorless cameras in professional circumstances but I really think camera companies are missing a trick here by abandoning small bodies and lenses and abandoning more casual users. I guess my demographic must be pretty niche these days. My ideal camera really would be the a6500 with better 1080p and maybe reduced quality 4k so the screen doesn't have to dim and the body doesn't overheat. Doubt it. Probably D5600 form factor regardless of FF or APS-C. Because, that's what Nikon users like. They'll start out with 0 lenses. Well, probably a 18-55 not so sensitive (like f/3.5-5.6), maybe a 16-35 sensitive (f/2.8(-4)), then perhaps a 35 and 50mm prime (f/1.8, the 50mm perhaps as f/1.4) that are native to the mirrorless game and more compact than anything they've come out with before. But mainly people are initially going to want to use their existing lenses, which Nikon will provide a smart adapter for (like Sony has done for Sony Alpha lenses and Canon for the EOS-M). So... myself, for example, my lenses include the Nikon mount 18-55mm II, 35mm f/1.8 DX, AF(-S) Nikkor ED 17-35mm f/2.8 D, 28-70mm f/2.8 D, 80-200mm f/2.8 D, 28mm f/2.8 AI-s MF & 35-70mm f/3.5 AI-s, Tokina AT-X PRO DX 11-16mm f/2.8 II, AT-X PRO FX 16-28mm f/2.8, AT-X 535 PRO DX 50-135mm f/2.8 & AT-X PRO II 28-70mm f/2.6-2.8, Walimex Pro 8mm f/3.5 II fisheye & 24mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift and then Sigma ART 18-35mm f/1.8 of course. Those are not the kind of lenses you pair up with a cute tiny little camera with poor ergonomics... ... plus we've seen what happens if you make a compact body the headline selling point... ergos are poor, hardware interface is limited... no dual cardslots, no dedicated headphone jack, quite bad battery life, they've once mentioned that they didn't want a vari-angle screen on there, because it would make for a bulkier design... space is so tight it isn't able to dissipate heat properly, so the screen dims, overheat protection kicks in, or with a raised threshold for it to do so leaving the camera so unfomfortably hot that they call it 'tripod' mode. Suboptimal chip infrastructure, mad rolling shutter, etc. Do you really think that Nikon, that makes pretty rugged workhorse cameras, will stand for that? Especially with hardly to no development of a dedicated compact lens line-up, it's just useless. So, expect and sure hope not. I'm very pro GH5, E-M1 Mark II, NX1 and X-T2 style and size bodies and very against what Sony is doing. Now with the A9/A7RIII it seems they're starting to realize this too, though, so maybe things are looking up from here on out. webrunner5 and Aussie Ash 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 My bet is that Nikon mirrorless will have a modern-retro design, from the depths of brand history (FM2?). Canon and Nikon do not consider mirrorless lines as heavy professional equipment (yet..), and Sony did the same for a long time (before the A9 and the new improved A7Riii). Canon, that already has a history with a mirrorless series (M), do not have, even one pro M lens. They will provide a smart adapter in box, or with an offer, or very cheap, as Nikon is proud of their lens/mount continuity and they want to be sure that existing Nikon users can go mirrorless without much hassle. I remember reading some impressive mirrorless designs in patent offices and the such, they will combine small pancakes with their existing line up, as it seems, for starters. I am very positive that Nikon lenses selection can turn the tide on this undeclared mirrorless war. No way it will be a video monster, not even close to specs Kings GH5/5s, or A7sIII, but probably for a majority of people, their color science, spec list and experience will be enough to buy Nikon. Maybe not for the price though. It could possibly cost more than A7 mk III series cameras (R or S). webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 4 hours ago, Aussie Ash said: TOKYO - Nikon Corporation is pleased to announce that total production of NIKKOR lenses* for Nikon interchangeable lens cameras reached one-hundred million* in June of 2016. 17 October 2017—Canon Inc. announced today that the Company has reached two major production milestones—a cumulative total of 90 million interchangeable-lens EOS cameras and 130 million1 EF-series interchangeable lenses. Well well well, I made a mistake! Very sorry about that, because I recalled reading the news about Nikon hitting a 100 million lenses, and then my memory falsely told me they'd done that "first" according to the reports I'd read way back then. Seems Canon beat them to it (but only by two years ahead of Nikon). 4 hours ago, Inazuma said: Does anyone else feel it would be a shame if the body was to be as big as the GH5 (which is as big as the d750)? I know that a lot of you are using these mirrorless cameras in professional circumstances but I really think camera companies are missing a trick here by abandoning small bodies and lenses and abandoning more casual users. I guess my demographic must be pretty niche these days. My ideal camera really would be the a6500 with better 1080p and maybe reduced quality 4k so the screen doesn't have to dim and the body doesn't overheat. I used the Panasonic GF7 a little teeny bit over NYE, that camera is truly teeny tiny itself! Hope Panasonic keeps on updating the GF/GM series. Oh, and the Sony a5100 is very very VERY overdue an update! 1 hour ago, Cinegain said: Doubt it. Probably D5600 form factor regardless of FF or APS-C. Because, that's what Nikon users like. They'll start out with 0 lenses. Well, probably a 18-55 not so sensitive (like f/3.5-5.6), maybe a 16-35 sensitive (f/2.8(-4)), then perhaps a 35 and 50mm prime (f/1.8, the 50mm perhaps as f/1.4) that are native to the mirrorless game and more compact than anything they've come out with before I would be absolutely SHOCKED if Nikon launched their big mirrorless gambit with only a single slow kit lens at launch! They'll probably have a line up of five or more lenses at launch, or at a minimum at least three lenses. (twin kit lenses plus a prime, but even then I'd be very shocked if they take this approach, which is only a small possibility if they decide to take the cautious entry level DX consumer approach rather than the "big splash" approach) 1 hour ago, Cinegain said: But mainly people are initially going to want to use their existing lenses, which Nikon will provide a smart adapter for (like Sony has done for Sony Alpha lenses and Canon for the EOS-M). The success or failure of the new Nikon mirrorless launch might even pivot on how effectively their adapter works, or doesn't. This will be a Big Deal. (because of those over a 100 million plus existing Nikon lenses, plus many many millions more third party lenses with a Nikon mount) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trek of Joy Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 8 hours ago, IronFilm said: False, as Nikon is well ahead with more lenses ever sold for Nikon F mount than Canon ever has done for Canon EF mount. Canon 130 million https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/explore/product-showcases/cameras-and-lenses/130-million-ef-lenses Nikon 100 million https://www.nikonusa.com/en/about-nikon/press-room/press-release/iqtrpgbe/Glamorous-Glass%3A-Nikon-Celebrates-100-Million-NIKKOR-Milestone-and-the-Introduction-of-the-AF-S-NIKKOR-105mm-f%2F1.4E-ED-Lens.html Either way, a larger user base than any current mirrorless offering. Chris 4 hours ago, Inazuma said: Does anyone else feel it would be a shame if the body was to be as big as the GH5 (which is as big as the d750)? I know that a lot of you are using these mirrorless cameras in professional circumstances but I really think camera companies are missing a trick here by abandoning small bodies and lenses and abandoning more casual users. I guess my demographic must be pretty niche these days. My ideal camera really would be the a6500 with better 1080p and maybe reduced quality 4k so the screen doesn't have to dim and the body doesn't overheat. Can you cram the speed, IBIS and video capabilities into a small body with a large sensor - without it overheating? Doesn't seem like it. My XT2 doesn't overheat like my a6300/a6000/a5100 did. Then again the a99II has overheating issues and a much larger body, so its tough to say. But I'd be in favor of a slightly larger body with better controls than the a6500, and zero overheating. I don't think Nikon will be chasing casual users with its mirrorless, they're chasing enthusiasts laying out large sums of cash for a7r3's, a9's, and the $2500 GM zooms. Just speculation on my part, but I think high & mid spec FF comes first - mirrorless version of the d850 and the upcoming d750 replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Canon 130million EF lenses (including the EF, EF-S and cine lenses from 1987 to 2017 according to the source).Nikon 100 million NIKKOR lenses (first one manufactured at 1933, according to the source). 100.00.000 are not a small thing though. I wonder how many Sony has sold since acquiring Minolta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeys Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 hour ago, IronFilm said: I would be absolutely SHOCKED if Nikon launched their big mirrorless gambit with only a single slow kit lens at launch! They'll probably have a line up of five or more lenses at launch, or at a minimum at least three lenses. Won't count on it, look at Nikon's traditional launches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, leeys said: Won't count on it, look at Nikon's traditional launches. Why? We have almost nothing to compare to. It has been many many MANY years since Nikon launched a new lens system. With one exception: Nikon 1, back in 2011. Which saw four lenses at the initial launch:https://***URL removed***/articles/9033467782/nikonlenses Which is greater than the "minimum three" I expect their new mirrorless system to have. And I expect them to take this even more seriously than they took Nikon 1, thus it wouldn't surprise me if they launch with more lenses than Nikon 1 had initially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Nikon will almost surely release a full frame mirrorless system. (The mount diameter is a strong indicator - and it wouldn't make sense for the company to launch another consumer mirrorless system after the failure of Nikon 1.) I bet that the first new camera will be largely identical to the D850, only with the new mirrorless mount and an EVF instead of the mirror box. The new mount will be 100% electronically compatible to the current F mount, and a lens adapter will be offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trek of Joy Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 With the Z-mount or whatever it winds up being called - it would make sense to start with 3 primes and a zoom or two. And I think it'll definitely be FF, a new line with low margin bodies makes no sense. It would be nice if they did some combo of the 21/24/28/35/50/85 right off the bat. Make them all 1.8's, the uber 1.4 G's can come later. And a mirrorless version of the 24-120/4. A 70-200/4 would be a smart move too - that way you can get a relatively complete kit with a wide range right off the bat. Sony had the 28/2, 35/2.8, 55/1.8, 24-70 & 70-200/4 when the a7 was released. Plus that crappy plastic kit lens. Also, publish a damn roadmap so early adopters can have a little sense of what's coming in the next year or so. Put a long tele, a few fast primes and the 2.8 zoom holy trinity of 14-24, 24-70, 70-200 on it. P.S. Nikon should call the new mount 'MF' for mirrorless F mount. The tagline possibilities are limitless. Chris iamoui and IronFilm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikkor Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I hope they make compact and greaterforming lenses, leica style, not these horrible penis compensation crap you have to buy on the other systems (otherwise what's the point of removing the mirror) Geoff CB, kaylee and jhnkng 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaylee Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 21 minutes ago, Nikkor said: I hope they make compact and greaterforming lenses, leica style, not these horrible penis compensation crap you have to buy on the other systems (otherwise what's the point of removing the mirror) ^^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noone Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 5 hours ago, Trek of Joy said: Canon 130 million https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/explore/product-showcases/cameras-and-lenses/130-million-ef-lenses Nikon 100 million https://www.nikonusa.com/en/about-nikon/press-room/press-release/iqtrpgbe/Glamorous-Glass%3A-Nikon-Celebrates-100-Million-NIKKOR-Milestone-and-the-Introduction-of-the-AF-S-NIKKOR-105mm-f%2F1.4E-ED-Lens.html Either way, a larger user base than any current mirrorless offering. Or you can look at it that it is 230 million more lenses for any mirrorless system with a shorter flange distance than the Canon EF mount. (including Canon or Nikon when they come). Trek of Joy and jhnkng 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 5 hours ago, cantsin said: Nikon will almost surely release a full frame mirrorless system. (The mount diameter is a strong indicator - and it wouldn't make sense for the company to launch another consumer mirrorless system after the failure of Nikon 1.) There is no doubt whatsoever if Nikon will release a full frame mirrorless, the question is if they will do it in their first year? Or will it not be until later down the track, after going with DX mirrorless first (like Sony did, but Sony didn't initially plan to go FF, but Nikon is so they can plan the mount right unlike Sony who kinda made a mistake there) 3 hours ago, Nikkor said: I hope they make compact and greaterforming lenses, leica style, not these horrible penis compensation crap you have to buy on the other systems (otherwise what's the point of removing the mirror) More pancake lenses please. 5 hours ago, Trek of Joy said: With the Z-mount or whatever it winds up being called Rotate the "Z" and it is a "N" for Nikon! ;-) 5 hours ago, Trek of Joy said: P.S. Nikon should call the new mount 'MF' for mirrorless F mount. The tagline possibilities are limitless. People might think MF stands for "Medium Format" "Manual Focus"! :-P Trek of Joy and Inazuma 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trek of Joy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 4 hours ago, noone said: Or you can look at it that it is 230 million more lenses for any mirrorless system with a shorter flange distance than the Canon EF mount. (including Canon or Nikon when they come). As an exclusive mirrorless shooter, that's exactly the way I look at it. noone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inazuma Posted January 15, 2018 Author Share Posted January 15, 2018 11 hours ago, Cinegain said: Doubt it. Probably D5600 form factor regardless of FF or APS-C. Because, that's what Nikon users like. They'll start out with 0 lenses. Well, probably a 18-55 not so sensitive (like f/3.5-5.6), maybe a 16-35 sensitive (f/2.8(-4)), then perhaps a 35 and 50mm prime (f/1.8, the 50mm perhaps as f/1.4) that are native to the mirrorless game and more compact than anything they've come out with before. But mainly people are initially going to want to use their existing lenses, which Nikon will provide a smart adapter for (like Sony has done for Sony Alpha lenses and Canon for the EOS-M). So... myself, for example, my lenses include the Nikon mount 18-55mm II, 35mm f/1.8 DX, AF(-S) Nikkor ED 17-35mm f/2.8 D, 28-70mm f/2.8 D, 80-200mm f/2.8 D, 28mm f/2.8 AI-s MF & 35-70mm f/3.5 AI-s, Tokina AT-X PRO DX 11-16mm f/2.8 II, AT-X PRO FX 16-28mm f/2.8, AT-X 535 PRO DX 50-135mm f/2.8 & AT-X PRO II 28-70mm f/2.6-2.8, Walimex Pro 8mm f/3.5 II fisheye & 24mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift and then Sigma ART 18-35mm f/1.8 of course. Those are not the kind of lenses you pair up with a cute tiny little camera with poor ergonomics... ... plus we've seen what happens if you make a compact body the headline selling point... ergos are poor, hardware interface is limited... no dual cardslots, no dedicated headphone jack, quite bad battery life, they've once mentioned that they didn't want a vari-angle screen on there, because it would make for a bulkier design... space is so tight it isn't able to dissipate heat properly, so the screen dims, overheat protection kicks in, or with a raised threshold for it to do so leaving the camera so unfomfortably hot that they call it 'tripod' mode. Suboptimal chip infrastructure, mad rolling shutter, etc. Do you really think that Nikon, that makes pretty rugged workhorse cameras, will stand for that? Especially with hardly to no development of a dedicated compact lens line-up, it's just useless. So, expect and sure hope not. I'm very pro GH5, E-M1 Mark II, NX1 and X-T2 style and size bodies and very against what Sony is doing. Now with the A9/A7RIII it seems they're starting to realize this too, though, so maybe things are looking up from here on out. The ergos on the Panasonic g80 and canon m5 are fantastic. And the xt2 (which is similar size to the g80) has dual card slots. XT2 also has non-overheating 4k. So clearly there are no inherent issues with small bodies as long as they're designed well. My main gripe with mirrorless manufacturers these days is they keep releasing DSLR sized lenses. What is the point of mirrorless of the lenses are still going to be bigger. That's part of the reason why I hope Nikon choose the aps-c sized sensor for their first cam. But the mount diameter suggests full frame. Cinegain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 I share that. That's why when I had the option to go GH2 or 600D/T3i, I went with the GH2. The lenses offered in the MFT scene are plentiful and compact. That means more than any compactness to the body to me. That's why I don't mind the GH5 or G9. Nice 'n grippy, balances out well with quality lenses. Really have no need for something as small and compromised as the A6500 (without healthy APS-C developed lens line-up) tbh. Love to have Nikon take the right direction with that, but isn't very likely (to be APS-C). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhnkng Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Inazuma said: My main gripe with mirrorless manufacturers these days is they keep releasing DSLR sized lenses. What is the point of mirrorless of the lenses are still going to be bigger. That's part of the reason why I hope Nikon choose the aps-c sized sensor for their first cam. But the mount diameter suggests full frame. Exactly. I just put my D750 next to my X-T2 and they're really not that different in size. The D750 is about 2cm taller and has a beefier grip, but they're about the same width and the D750 is maybe 3-6mm thicker depending on the part. Considering the D750 has to house a pentaprism and a mirrorbox, it really isn't a very big camera at all. But I don't think APS-C is going to instantly make lenses smaller. Fuji makes a bunch of small f2 primes that are great, but their 2.8 zooms are huge. The more I think about it I think my dream Nikon mirrorless is basically a D850 that uses a bigger battery like the D5 that will get through an entire day's shooting with a single battery. I don't even care if it's as big as a D850, if I don't need to pack 9 batteries that'll be a win! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Ash Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Thom Hogan did some interesting analysis of Nikon body sales 2012-15 with his finding that DX was 84% of their worldwide sales ! Concluding with DX is the market they should be aiming at with mirrorless. http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/how-do-fx-and-dx-sales.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 They need both. Need DX to reap in all the sales and make $$$$ But need FX for the headlines and reputation to then sell those DX bodies, plus any few extra $ from selling FX is a good bonus too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Ash Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, IronFilm said: They need both. Need DX to reap in all the sales and make $$$$ But need FX for the headlines and reputation to then sell those DX bodies, plus any few extra $ from selling FX is a good bonus too. Are established wedding photographers clamoring for full frame mirrorless ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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