Your Nikon mirrorless wishes

[Robert Collins]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

It's 16 bit, trillions of colors, less banding, better output grading it, etc. Overkill yes, but if you are a Pro every edge you have might land more jobs, more money.

Out of interest have you ever managed to generate banding from a 14bit raw file or even a 12 bit raw file for that matter? And even if you have, it may well reflect the fact that you have a 8 bit computer screen (or possibly 10 bit). (I struggle to see the difference between 12 and 14 bit 99%+ of the time and I push the files pretty hard.)

In any case, most of the engineers suggest that the 16 bit files from medium format cameras are simply 'padding' 14 bit digital output.

[webrunner5]

Well I have never used one in the video mode. I have used a 16 bit Hasselblad a couple of times Photo wise.  But banding occurs in Photos just like video can. And Photos I have shot on one have been printed out, I am not sure how many bits are in a print, but yeah you have a valid point about seeing stuff Only using a 8 bit monitor, but if it looks like shit it will show up on Any monitor I would think. As to the Padding, well I know Phase One would be sued for claiming 16 bit if they really didn't have it. I mean the people that buy them have the money to sue LoL. All the MF makers all claim 16 bit files. Hmm I lied, the Fuji is only showing 14 bit.Interesting.  I am not sure what sensor Fuji uses, maybe their own? I am pretty sure Hassy, Phase One use the Sony sensor for their 100mp backs. First time MF cameras have had a CMOS sensor instead of a CCD one I believe. Lot better low light ability. Yeah looks like Fuji is using their own sensor, and it is CMOS also. Pentax is 14 bit also. Hmm.

https://captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/IQ_Digital_Back_Range-WEB.pdf

This is the Hasselblad I have shot with. It is Not mine trust me. A friend of mine has one. He is really not that great using it, but he can Afford it, and well anything he wants. He is a self made multi millionaire in construction , and he has a Lot of rental units also.  I used to have some also for tax write offs. I used to do work for him when I had my Excavation Company. Super nice guy for a person that has Lots of money. Most rich people are not very nice. Most just use you for Their benefit, not this guy.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1244708-REG/hasselblad_h_3013740_h6d_50c_medium_format_dslr.html

Looks like the 100mp version of it can shoot UHD 4K and Full HD RAW Video at 30 fps. Probably because it is a Sony sensor.

[Robert Collins]

34 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

As to the Padding, well I know Phase One would be sued for claiming 16 bit if they really didn't have it. I mean the people that buy them have the money to sue LoL.

It really isnt that simple. I can take an 8 bit jpeg into photoshop and convert it to 16 bit - it will be a 16 bit file with 8 bits of information.

The 50mp Sony medium format sensor only outputs 14 bit data, so any 16 bit file generated from the data has simply added 'padding'. For instance the Hasselblad X1D claims to be 16 bit while the Fuji GFX 50s is 14 bit. As you can see here the only difference is the padding in the Hasselblad. 

https://***URL removed***/forums/post/59002429

Sony (or anyone else) do not actually produce a FF sensor with more than 14 bit output. Now Nikon's image processor could quite easily convert that to 16 bit but it wouldnt actually achieve anything of any consequence. Apart from the fact that it might be a good marketing ploy if it happened to fool people.

[webrunner5]

"But, for some reason the Sony sensor used in the Phase One IQ3-100MP has 15 bits worth of data and the ADC actually delivers 16 bits. The Hasselblad 100 MP camera uses the same sensor and also delivers 16 bit data. So, if you need 16 bit of data you can pay a bit more…"

Last part of the article.

I can find all kind of crazy articles on DPR that try to prove this or that. It is sort of like Bumble Bee's. On paper to an engineer they can't fly.

Plus the reason the Fuji is Only 14 bit is that they used the processor out of a X-T2.

And it really doesn't matter, I doubt we can see Trillions of colors anyway in 16 bit, let alone afford a camera that has it.

[webrunner5]

Sony’s unique 8K image sensor, with approximately 20 megapixels, offers higher image fidelity than any other camera. With 16-bit RAW output, the F65 establishes the gateway to a complete, end-to-end 4K mastering workflow.

“Sony’s new F65 digital motion picture camera combines true 4K resolution with an expansive dynamic range that enables a more nuanced reproduction of fine textural and tonal details,” said Curtis Clark, ASC. “Along with excellent contrast and exceptional color reproduction the F65 produces images that have a rich filmic look and feel, providing filmmakers with significantly enhanced creative photographic possibilities.”

It was not FF, really not even s35 it looks like.

From Andrew's review of it on here.

"so the F65’s sensor is the same height as the GH2’s sensor but slightly wider. It also supports cropping for different aspect ratios.

The sensor is manufactured in Japan by Sony on a 300mm wafer divided up into 24.7mm x 13.1mm chunks. Each wafer takes a humongous 90 days to process (i.e. manufacture)."

[Robert Collins]

25 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

"But, for some reason the Sony sensor used in the Phase One IQ3-100MP has 15 bits worth of data and the ADC actually delivers 16 bits. The Hasselblad 100 MP camera uses the same sensor and also delivers 16 bit data. So, if you need 16 bit of data you can pay a bit more…"

Last part of the article.

I can find all kind of crazy articles on DPR that try to prove this or that.

Plus the reason the Fuji is Only 14 bit is that they used the processor out of a X-T2.

Honestly that is nonsense.

Look at the raw digger data from Phase One IQ250

It very clearly shows a 16 bit file with 14 bit information - which is why 3 out of 4 channels are blank.

I am not sure if we are discussing whether it is possible to create 16 bit files from 14 bits of information (which is trivial) or whether you actually think it is a good idea on the basis that it fools you into thinking you have 16 bits of information.

 

[webrunner5]

5 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Honestly that is nonsense.

Look at the raw digger data from Phase One IQ250

It very clearly shows a 16 bit file with 14 bit information - which is why 3 out of 4 channels are blank.

 

That is the 50mp sensor. I am talking the 100mp sensor. And what nonsense, it came from a article that you posted to me. Not what I found.

[Robert Collins]

OK perhaps you missed my point. The suggestion was that Nikon introduce 16 bit files. As Sony (and others) only produce FF sensors with a maximum of 14 bit digital output, Nikon could only provide 16 bit files by 'padding' the last 2 bits (which is what a lot of the MF cameras are doing). It would still be 14 bits of information in a 16 bit container. To me this sounds like a lousy idea.

It is pretty obvious, though, that it will fool some people into believing they have magically created information where none exists!! So I definitely see the marketing angle.

[webrunner5]

27 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

OK perhaps you missed my point. The suggestion was that Nikon introduce 16 bit files. As Sony (and others) only produce FF sensors with a maximum of 14 bit digital output, Nikon could only provide 16 bit files by 'padding' the last 2 bits (which is what a lot of the MF cameras are doing). It would still be 14 bits of information in a 16 bit container. To me this sounds like a lousy idea.

It is pretty obvious, though, that it will fool some people into believing they have magically created information where none exists!! So I definitely see the marketing angle.

Oh I will not contest that FF cameras doesn't have 16 bits at all. 14 tops, and that is in Photo mode. Heck video we are talking 8 bit other than the GH5, GH5s I could ever afford. And I don't think sensor size has much to do with bits anyways, look at the F65 above. Plus in reality I have no clue the specs of Any newer Nikon. Out of my price range for the nicer ones. But every camera that has Raw output is pretty high Bit rate wise in Raw.

But I am not sure what Bit Rate this New ProRes Raw has to be? I have not read the White Paper. I thought I read 10 bit someplace?

[webrunner5]

Kidz has a graph that I guess proves your point on the 16 bit part on the Nikon. Middle of the second page.

 

[frontfocus]

13 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Plus the reason the Fuji is Only 14 bit is that they used the processor out of a X-T2

I haven‘t followed the whole dicussion, but this part is not right. The Fuji has 14bit RAWs, because the sensor is only 14bit. At least that‘s what a Fuji engineer said. All those 50MP cams use the 14bit sensor, everything above is just air.

 

Overall a higher bit rate only makes sense, when the sensor supports it. Pentax had 22bit with their K10d. No improvement, because the data just wasmn‘t there

the new CMOS 100MP medium format sensor seems to go beyond 14bit dynamic range, so the 16bit adcs make sense

[webrunner5]

8 hours ago, frontfocus said:

I haven‘t followed the whole dicussion, but this part is not right. The Fuji has 14bit RAWs, because the sensor is only 14bit. At least that‘s what a Fuji engineer said. All those 50MP cams use the 14bit sensor, everything above is just air.

 

Overall a higher bit rate only makes sense, when the sensor supports it. Pentax had 22bit with their K10d. No improvement, because the data just wasmn‘t there

the new CMOS 100MP medium format sensor seems to go beyond 14bit dynamic range, so the 16bit adcs make sense

The Fuji sensor is Fuji's X own design, the Hasselblad uses a Sony sensor. Big difference.

[frontfocus]

14 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

The Fuji sensor is Fuji's X own design, the Hasselblad uses a Sony sensor. Big difference.

all 50MP CMOS sensors are based on the same design. Hasselblad, in both the X1D as well as the 50c backs, Phase One and Pentax use it as it was designed, while Fuji had Sony make some modifications. But the sensor delivers 14 stops of dynamic range per pixel, the adcs are 14bit with all of them. More color depth wouldn't make any sense, since it would only slow the cameras down even further

[webrunner5]

8 hours ago, frontfocus said:

all 50MP CMOS sensors are based on the same design. Hasselblad, in both the X1D as well as the 50c backs, Phase One and Pentax use it as it was designed, while Fuji had Sony make some modifications. But the sensor delivers 14 stops of dynamic range per pixel, the adcs are 14bit with all of them. More color depth wouldn't make any sense, since it would only slow the cameras down even further

I think I have to believe Hasselblad.

"DIGITAL FEATURES

Sensor type

CMOS, 50 Megapixels (8272 × 6200 pixels, 5.3 × 5.3 μm)

Sensor dimensions

43.8 × 32.9 mm

Image size

RAW 3FR capture 65 MB on average. TIFF 8 bit: 154 MB

File format

Lossless compressed Hasselblad 3FR

Shooting mode

Single shot

Color definition

16 bit"

[frontfocus]

believe what you want, all the info is in this thread.

Just a thought: if you import an JPG into Photoshop as a 16bit TIFF, do you get those 16bit you are after?

[ND64]

Top dogs in DR has only 12 stop if you count the "useable" ones. So for today's sensor tech, anything beyond 14bit is just wasting the storage space. If they could manage to reach 15 stop or something, then we talk about 16bit, but that sensor should have the most noise-free pixel ever invented to achieve that. 

 

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Hasselblad X1D-50c,Nikon D850

[IronFilm]

Sony has 14bit raw (with for instance their F5/F55, which I've shot raw with, BIG files!). 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2014/03/11/shooting-raw-with-the-sony-f55-and-r5-recorder-just-how-good-is-it-asks-matt-allard/

 

[IronFilm]

Quote

Here is the timeframe of Nikon DSLR cameras announcements since 2016:

• January 2016: Nikon D5 & Nikon D500
• August 2016: Nikon D3400
• November 2016: Nikon D5600
• April 2017: Nikon D7500
• July 2017: Nikon D850
• 2018: nothing

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/04/09/nikon-d7500-and-d850-the-only-two-cameras-nikon-announced-in-the-last-18-months-win-the-red-dot-product-design-award.aspx/#ixzz5CQXeHRHZ

Been a bit slow on the Nikon front lately, one can only hope it is because they've been busy working on their new FX and DX mirrorless models!

But if they are going to release a couple of DSLR models this yeah, I'd bet (hope?) it is a D5700 (with 4K!) and a D750mk2.  As that makes sense for their next consumer and pro models to upgrade this year. 

[Robert Collins]

21 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/04/09/nikon-d7500-and-d850-the-only-two-cameras-nikon-announced-in-the-last-18-months-win-the-red-dot-product-design-award.aspx/#ixzz5CQXeHRHZ

Been a bit slow on the Nikon front lately, one can only hope it is because they've been busy working on their new FX and DX mirrorless models!

But if they are going to release a couple of DSLR models this yeah, I'd bet (hope?) it is a D5700 (with 4K!) and a D750mk2.  As that makes sense for their next consumer and pro models to upgrade this year. 

The D610 is coming up to 5 years old!!

[IronFilm]

22 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

The D610 is coming up to 5 years old!!

I reckon the D750 is the continuation of the D6xx line. 

And that camera is from September 2014 announcement, so not that many more months away until it is 4 years old. 

While the D5600 is from late 2016 which is much more recent, but their entry level models tend to be updated on a quicker cycle. (although might see the D3500 before the D5700)