C200 - some thoughts

[Mattias Burling]

So far I have never seen any FS7 10-bit footage with more usable DR than Canon 8-bit C-log. 

[User]

11 hours ago, jhnkng said:

I shoot mostly uncontrolled/run-and-gun... and I can tell you that if the scene looks crap to your eyes there's no rescuing that even if you'd shot on an Alexa. And if you're good enough to grade beautiful cinematic scenes then you've got the know-how to fake it with a decently shot 8 bit file. 

None of this is to say that you should or shouldn't get a C200, because you need to take into account the way you shoot. I chose a C100mk2 because the package has everything I need to work solo, but I wouldn't chose that camera if I had the budget for crew. I chose to buy the cheapest camera that has everything built in so when I shoot I can concentrate on telling the story.  I'd like to get a C200 when the prices come down because it would fit on a gimbal better, and the autofocus is better. I love Canon's DPAF system, it increases my hit rate and helps me shoot more efficiently. Canon Log is super easy to grade and work with as long as you protect your highlights -- half stop over and the highlights are cooked, but I've brought back shots that were 2+ stops under (because I forgot to change my ND setting, duh!) with barely an issue. 

 

Well said. This is exactly where I'm at.

[DBounce]

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I may be wrong, but isn't that already here, isn't it called a Panasonic GH5s??

Unfortunately, you are wrong. The starvis chip does indeed support true HDR capturing... that is... recording high and low ISOs simultaneously. However, Panasonic choose not to implement this feature. Opting instead to use the dual circuits to support their “dual ISO” feature. This was IMO a mistake.

Can it be enabled in firmware? Probably, but there are no plans to do this that I am aware of.

[hijodeibn]

2 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

So far I have never seen any FS7 10-bit footage with more usable DR than Canon 8-bit C-log. 

True, and to be honest, nobody will notice ether, I have never seen someone watching a scene and notice if it was shoot in 8-bit or 10-bit, you can see the difference in your 4k OLED TV putting both files next to each other, but thats all, I agree with @mercer and @jhnkng, if you are shooting with Canon 8-bit and screw up during the shooting and you are not able to push the footage enough to save the take, there is no way 10-bit is going to do it for you, but RAW, yes RAW could do it, so the C200 is perfect imo, 4k 8-bit for 90% of docs, and 4k RAW for movies and 10% of docs where the light is just crap....

[webrunner5]

Well I was thinking last night that there might be another reason the GH5s does not have IBIS. And it might have involved extra, well it would have.

The GH5s as we know has the multi Aspect Sensor on it, and because of it it is well quite a bit bigger than a normal m4/3 sensor. So that probably meant the the existing IBIS would not fit the housing that held the GH5 sensor. And it probably meant that eve if they wanted to design a new IBIS assembly it would have involved and even bigger body. I really doubt they wanted to go that route for several reasons. One None of the aftermarket camera rigs people already have would not fit anymore, and second some people piss a bitch now the body is too big. And third that would have had to be a total change over in manufacturing of it. Heck all that is really different outside is a all red movie button and a band around a knob, and the name on the front. 15 dollars of stuff probably.

So yeah that among other factors have contributed to no IBIS.

2 hours ago, DBounce said:

Unfortunately, you are wrong. The starvis chip does indeed support true HDR capturing... that is... recording high and low ISOs simultaneously. However, Panasonic choose not to implement this feature. Opting instead to use the dual circuits to support their “dual ISO” feature. This was IMO a mistake.

Can it be enabled in firmware? Probably, but there are no plans to do this that I am aware of.

So you are saying a GH5 can shoot HDR and the GH5s can't? I don't know squat about HDR, but I would like to learn more about it.

[jonpais]

@webrunner5 Just about any camera that shoots log or RAW can be graded for HDR delivery, including both the GH5 and GH5s. The G9 is an example of a camera that does not shoot log.

For HDR delivery, a camera must not only have a log profile, but also a minimum of 10 bits. The Sony a7RIII, for example, only shoots 8 bit video..

The Starvis sensor uses quad bayer coding HDR, where two exposures, one short and one long, are combined in a single frame to give wider dynamic range. So for example in a scene with a person standing in a dark room in front of a bright window, you could see more detail in the shadows and highlights. 

[DBounce]

7 hours ago, jonpais said:

@webrunner5 Just about any camera that shoots log or RAW can be graded for HDR delivery, including both the GH5 and GH5s. The G9 is an example of a camera that does not shoot log.

For HDR delivery, a camera must not only have a log profile, but also a minimum of 10 bits. The Sony a7RIII, for example, only shoots 8 bit video..

The Starvis sensor uses quad bayer coding HDR, where two exposures, one short and one long, are combined in a single frame to give wider dynamic range. So for example in a scene with a person standing in a dark room in front of a bright window, you could see more detail in the shadows and highlights. 

Exactly, in the stills world hdr is accomplished by taking two pictures at different exposures and then combining the two. With a conventional sensor we must try to squeeze this detail out in post. But even then, at these price points, the amount that can be squeezed is limited. Having a sensor that actually can capture multiple exposure at once is a cheaper and perhaps better alternative for a camera in this price range. 

But it would be nice if each pixel could adjust its own exposure. But don’t hold your breath for that one. Nonetheless, someone is working on it

[IronFilm]

On 1/27/2018 at 8:48 AM, Mattias Burling said:

Prices are really bananas these days. For example, I can buy a C300i with PDAF for less than a used GH5.

And a Sony F3 going for half that sometimes!!! :-o Wow

Was a little shocked to see today a Sony PMW-F5 sell for US$5.7K:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Version-UP-Sony-PMW-F5-Camcorder-4K-format-OK/122925420188

Pity I didn't have the money for it :-(

 

On 1/27/2018 at 8:48 AM, Mattias Burling said:

Prices are really bananas these days. For example, I can buy a C300i with PDAF for less than a used GH5.

Travel back and tell me that three years ago and give me a good laugh

Laugh given! :-P

 

On 1/27/2018 at 9:27 PM, Mattias Burling said:

Remember how we used to joke about Canon actually making a great camera and forums still finding flaws. You know how many cameras today have everything we asked for two years ago and we promised that would be "it". All happy. But we then turn every single rock in search of something to be unhappy about. 

 

I don't have to look under many rocks to find something: no TC on the C200

 

[Mattias Burling]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Was a little shocked to see today a Sony PMW-F5 sell for US$5.7K:

Or save some money and weight by getting the lighter Red One MX. Gives you recode as well

In all seriousness. The F5 is cool and all but man is it a heavy beast, R1MX heavy. The reality show about the company I work for was shot on it and I asked to try it out without the easy rig... wow.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

Or save some money and weight by getting the lighter Red One MX. Gives you recode as well

In all seriousness. The F5 is cool and all but man is it a heavy beast, R1MX heavy. The reality show about the company I work for was shot on it and I asked to try it out without the easy rig... wow.

The F5 is heavy, but not as heavy as a RED ONE!

2.2 kg vs 4.5kg

That isn't even close. 

But of course it all depends on how the final rig is set up. 

But certainly if I owned either then I'd invest in an easyrig. 

[Mattias Burling]

It wasn't any 2.2kg thats for sure. More like 15 kg with the ENG lens, monitor, etc.
My R1MX was about the same weight fully rigged.

But like you said, both are easy rig materiel for long days of RnG. Not that I personally would use either camera for such shooting.

[IronFilm]

29 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

It wasn't any 2.2kg thats for sure. More like 15 kg with the ENG lens, monitor, etc.

I'm stating the quoted manufacturer specs for each for the body only weight (as of course it is meaningless to give a rigged up weight, as it can vary so much from one person to the next!)

[Mattias Burling]

20 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I'm stating the quoted manufacturer specs for each for the body only weight (as of course it is meaningless to give a rigged up weight, as it can vary so much from one person to the next!)

Im just going by holding both cameras with minimal setup for basic shooting. Camera, lens, monitor, evf, battery.
With those components the Sony was so heavy that anything more than a few minutes was an absolute no go.

[Robert Collins]

18 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

The GH5s as we know has the multi Aspect Sensor on it, and because of it it is well quite a bit bigger than a normal m4/3 sensor.

I seriously doubt it. The multi-aspect sensor is how the pixels are distributed and not the physical size of the sensor. The GH1 had a multi-aspect sensor and it had exactly the same size sensor as all the other M43 cameras. It was sporting an extra 100,000 pixels though.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

Im just going by holding both cameras with minimal setup for basic shooting. Camera, lens, monitor, evf, battery.
With those components the Sony was so heavy that anything more than a few minutes was an absolute no go.

Well you could use exactly the same lens / monitor / battery / etc on either a RED ONE or the Sony F5, thus it would be down to the rig's choice of gear not the camera body which makes it so heavy. 

 

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

I seriously doubt it. The multi-aspect sensor is how the pixels are distributed and not the physical size of the sensor. The GH1 had a multi-aspect sensor and it had exactly the same size sensor as all the other M43 cameras. It was sporting an extra 100,000 pixels though.

Multi-aspect means they use a large proportion of the sensor. 

[Mattias Burling]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Well you could use exactly the same lens / monitor / battery / etc on either a RED ONE or the Sony F5, thus it would be down to the rig's choice of gear not the camera body which makes it so heavy. 

Its a beast no matter what imo.

[BenEricson]

On 1/28/2018 at 4:50 AM, Mattias Burling said:

So far I have never seen any FS7 10-bit footage with more usable DR than Canon 8-bit C-log. 

I literally could get better color out of the XC10 than my FS700/7Q. I'm not saying the FS700 can't do more and look better, but the Canon compression is really really nice. The main problem with the XC10 is the lens - not really the 8 bit codec. 

I would imagine if you know the limits of the 8bit/c200 codec, you can do really really nice work. You just need to stress test it like any camera.

[mercer]

Speaking of the XC10... I noticed BH just lowered the price from $1999 to $1799 with the card and card reader and $1599 for just the camera. In fact, it’s a special order only now, so I am thinking maybe the rumored, interchangeable lens version, may be true.

[JordanWright]

28 minutes ago, mercer said:

Speaking of the XC10... I noticed BH just lowered the price from $1999 to $1799 with the card and card reader and $1599 for just the camera. In fact, it’s a special order only now, so I am thinking maybe the rumored, interchangeable lens version, may be true.

Hopefully so - a mini 4k c100 essentially 

[Damphousse]

On 1/27/2018 at 2:27 AM, Mattias Burling said:

Im not really on board this lust for a middle codec. And I never really got it either. On a bmpcc I shoot raw or proxy. Lightest or the best. No in between or half ass.

 

 

So what you are telling us is you always shoot at least 10 bit.  I think you just proved everyone's point.  Also...

BMPCC new $500

Canon C200 new $7,500

On 1/27/2018 at 2:27 AM, Mattias Burling said:

Remember how we used to joke about Canon actually making a great camera and forums still finding flaws. You know how many cameras today have everything we asked for two years ago and we promised that would be "it". All happy. But we then turn every single rock in search of something to be unhappy about.

If you check posts from this forum from 5 years ago you will notice numerous posts requesting 10 bit 422.  It has been the most requested thing for years.

Now DPAF is a different animal.  5 years ago you would be ridiculed as an amateur for even requesting any kind of autofocus.  Now the "pros" tell us it is impossible to shoot a documentary without it.  That I find hilarious.  But 10 bit 422?  Where have you been?