Is the EOS-M *THE* Digital Super-8 Camera?

[tupp]

12 hours ago, Alpicat said:

I posted a comment on one of their youtube videos where they demonstrate the adapter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPseT8Ok3EA&lc=

What happened to Bohus?  Thanks for the link.

 

 

12 hours ago, Alpicat said:

I think the only way to get close to a 3x crop (which is approx Super 16 size) is to increase the horizontal resolution to 2.5k (using 5x zoom mode). However at that resolution you only get about 3 seconds record time, and the vertical res is limited to 1080. 

I am fairly sure that there is a 3x crop mode in Magic Lantern, but I don't know what resolutions are possible, nor if one can shoot in that mode and not suffer pink/green focus pixels.  It is difficult to determine Magic Lantern capabilities as the only mention of features is sometimes spread over many threads on their forum, with some threads having 60+ pages of posts.

 

 

12 hours ago, Alpicat said:

I actually emailed the metabones sales team last week about their plans to make a speed booster for the EOS M mount (since it would be useful for the Canon M50 too), and they say they plan to do it but can't provide further info at this stage. If they do make it, that would be one way of getting super 16mm field of view on the EOS M!

Well, if Metabones doesn't make a speed booster that mounts on the EOSM, some of their competitors already got the EOSM covered.  Plus, if an EOSM-m4/3 gets made, that would allow the use of a lot of m4/3 focal reducers on the EOSM, including Metabones.

 

Metabones should actually make their $peedboosters with interchangeable camera mounts, so you only have to spend $500+ for one set of optics.

[Matt Kieley]

12 hours ago, tupp said:

I am fairly sure that there is a 3x crop mode in Magic Lantern

3x + the 1.6x crop of the sensor. If you want s16 and RAW, just get the Blackmagic Pocket or Micro. It reliably shoots Full HD in RAW as well as ProRes, with a s16 sensor.

[tupp]

1 hour ago, Matt Kieley said:

3x + the 1.6x crop of the sensor. If you want s16 and RAW, just get the Blackmagic Pocket or Micro. It reliably shoots Full HD in RAW as well as ProRes, with a s16 sensor.

Thanks for the confirmation on the 3x crop.  I wonder what resolutions are available at that crop and whether or not I would have to deal with focus pixels.

 

In regards to the Blackmagic pocket and micro, I have shot a lot with the pocket, and it gives great images.  I own an EOSM, but not any Blackmagic cameras.  So, instead of spending another US$1000, I would rather try similar functionality with my EOSM.

[Alpicat]

5 minutes ago, tupp said:

Thanks for the confirmation on the 3x crop.  I wonder what resolutions are available at that crop and whether or not I would have to deal with focus pixels.

There are two options when filming in crop mode (also called 1x1 crop mode to avoid confusion): 

1) There's "movie crop mode" (selectable from the magic lantern menu), which I keep referring to in my previous posts on this thread (see my "Destination Docklands" video on previous page for a demonstration of this mode). The max res is 1800x1024. There are no focus pixels if you shoot in 10 or 12 bit lossless raw.  This is my favourite mode as it gives you pretty much the proper framing in liveview with a realtime preview, and the record times are generally reasonable at that resolution.

2) There's 5x zoom mode (selectable by pressing zoom twice on Canon's liveview touchscreen). This allows you to shoot at a higher max resolution of 2520x1080. In 10 bit lossless raw you get around 3 seconds of record time at this resolution, so it's not so convenient for most uses. Also liveview is zoomed in a fair amount, so the framing isn't right - though at least it's realtime.

 @Matt Kieley mentions there's a 3x crop + the 1.6x crop (from the aps-c sensor). That's correct and adds up to a 4.8x crop in comparison to 35mm full frame (i.e. 3 x 1.6 = 4.8). That applies to both crop modes mentioned above, but the exact crop factor will actually depend on the resolution you're shooting at, because 1x1 crop mode uses 1x1 pixel interpolation (there is no pixel binning). With movie crop mode at 1800x1024 resolution, the crop from 35mm full frame is 4.66x. With 5x zoom mode at 2520x1080 the crop is 3.33x 

14 hours ago, tupp said:

am fairly sure that there is a 3x crop mode in Magic Lantern

I've just checked and there is indeed a 3x3 "crop mode". This is completely different to the 1x1 crop modes mentioned above! The "3x3" refers to the fact that the camera is doing 3x3 pixel binning.

3x3 crop mode allows you to shoot with the whole aps-c sensor width. To activate, you have to enable crop_rec module under the modules menu (using the experimental firmware). In the Canon menu you need to switch to 720p 50/60 fps recording. Then you can activate it in the magic lantern menu by selecting "crop mode".

However, the video quality isn't very good. The difference between this 3x3 mode and the regular full aps-c recording mode (which apparently uses 3x5 pixel binning) seems marginal. I think there's slightly less moire. The max resolution is 1736x688 which gives you a 2.5:1 aspect ratio. The focus dots do make a comeback, but they can be removed with MLVapp. 

[tupp]

@Alpicat

Thanks for the info.  That clarifies/differentiates some of the features.

 

I thought that the 3x crop is equivalent to super16 while 5x is equivalent to super8.

 

I also was under the impression that "movie crop mode" could be super16 in size.

[byuri734]

5 hours ago, Matt Kieley said:

3x + the 1.6x crop of the sensor. If you want s16 and RAW, just get the Blackmagic Pocket or Micro. It reliably shoots Full HD in RAW as well as ProRes, with a s16 sensor.

I agree, if you are looking at S16, it is better to go with a BMPCC. You probably can get a used one for just a bit more than an eventually new eos-m speed booster.

[tupp]

27 minutes ago, byuri734 said:

I agree, if you are looking at S16, it is better to go with a BMPCC. You probably can get a used one for just a bit more than an eventually new eos-m speed booster.

Thanks.  As I mentioned above, I have shot extensively with the BMPCC, but I don't own one nor do I own a BMMCC.

 

I own an EOSM with an RJ focal reducer.  For the optics that I have, it would be ideal to get a super16 crop, full HD, 10-bit, 4:4:4 (or raw),  or to get the same specs with no crop (APS-C).

[Alpicat]

11 hours ago, tupp said:

I thought that the 3x crop is equivalent to super16 while 5x is equivalent to super8.

I also was under the impression that "movie crop mode" could be super16 in size.

The two 1x1 crop modes I mentioned in my post above are the only ones available on the EOS M. There are no other crop mode. The 5x zoom mode or 3x crop (movie crop mode) are actually misleading labels, since they both do exactly the same thing (both record in 1x1 sensor crop mode - i.e. with 1:1 pixel interpolation). There's no difference between them apart from the max resolution you're allowed to record at. In fact those names only relate to how liveview previews the image for you. 

I think part of the confusion in crop numbers comes from the fact that the magic lantern menu always states crop factor in relation to 35mm full frame (i.e. same sensor size as Canon 5D), no matter which camera.... 

On the other hand, the "5x zoom mode" (a label that comes from the Canon EOS ecosystem) is in relation to the sensor size of that particular camera (in this case, the EOS M has an 1.6x crop aps-c sensor). So the real liveview crop factor when using 5x zoom mode on EOS M is actually 5 x 1.6 = 8x zoom, which is why liveview looks so zoomed in when selecting this mode. But as mentioned above, that's just the preview and it doesn't relate to what's being recorded.

Do RJ do a focal reducer for the EOS M mount directly? I'd definitely be interested in getting one.

[tupp]

5 hours ago, Alpicat said:

I think part of the confusion in crop numbers comes from the fact that the magic lantern menu always states crop factor in relation to 35mm full frame (i.e. same sensor size as Canon 5D), no matter which camera.... 

That's not the cause of my confusion -- I don't even have Magic Lantern installed, so I am not looking at the menus.  Indeed, if all the crops were simply labeled relative to full frame, there would be  a lot less confusion in regard to crop sizes.

 

I think that a lot of the confusion with Magic Lantern comes from three things:

1. The official documentation is not current and a lot of features are left out;
2. The only mention of some features is scattered over a zillion forum posts, so information on is difficult to find;
3. Since all of the features are released as they appear, the features weren't named together, all at once, so the naming has been somewhat arbitrary, reactive and haphazard.  Consequently, it is difficult to tell from the feature's name what that feature does (especially relative to other similar features).

 

 

5 hours ago, Alpicat said:

Do RJ do a focal reducer for the EOS M mount directly? I'd definitely be interested in getting one.

Yes.  I have this one.  There are other brands that have "dumb" EF-to-EF-M focal reducers -- just search on Ebay.

 

Thanks for the info!

[cantsin]

17 hours ago, tupp said:

I own an EOSM with an RJ focal reducer.  For the optics that I have, it would be ideal to get a super16 crop, full HD, 10-bit, 4:4:4 (or raw),  or to get the same specs with no crop (APS-C).

The EOS-M is simply not powerful enough for that. Blackmagic is the only affordable option if you need these specs.

[tupp]

45 minutes ago, cantsin said:

The EOS-M is simply not powerful enough for that. Blackmagic is the only affordable option if you need these specs.

I said that those specs would be "ideal" -- I realize that those exact specs are probably not currently feasible.   On the other hand, 12-bit/10bit raw at 1800x1024 is working with the EOSM, and that is certainly close enough to what I seek.  However, the Magic Lantern documentation, nomenclature and forum are so confusing, I cannot figure out whether or not those specs are available in a super16 crop.

 

ML has not been able to get higher raw resolutions from the full sensor, but I am not sure that is due to the EOSM lacking "power."  I assume that this current limitation doesn't involve the EOSM's SD card controller bottleneck, because the EOSM can obviously record full-HD+ resolutions at higher bit depths with crop modes.  So, there might be a way to get raw and "near-full-HD" without a crop.

 

I am just trying to figure out what is possible right now with the EOSM.

[cantsin]

You can only record an unscaled image when you record raw. To achieve s16 sensor size, you would need to record 2.5k video (cropped from the 5k sensor of the EOS-M). That would be about 55 MB/s in 10bit which is not feasible with the EOS-M's memory bus/SD card controller.

[byuri734]

On 3/13/2018 at 12:59 PM, Alpicat said:

Nice to hear MLV App reads the white balance properly for you. Did you change any settings in the program? On the PC version it always defaults to 6000k.

You are right. MLV App reads the files with AWB as 6000k always. It is strange that it can read manual white balance properly. Do you know any app that can convert eos m files and read AWB properly? Also: the MLV app cannot convert to cinema dng in my mac (high sierra), only ProRes 4444. Do you know anything about this bug?

[atomkatten]

any good power solutions / diy battery grip ideas? my original battery drains so quick. 

inspired by this thread, I’m expecting a box of mystery cooke, berthiot and kern lenses to show up any day..

[BTM_Pix]

33 minutes ago, atomkatten said:

any good power solutions / diy battery grip ideas? my original battery drains so quick. 

Ex-Pro do a dummy battery with power brick solution for under £50.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ex-Pro®-16000mAh-Rechargeable-Battery-replacing/dp/B01M5KQQSY/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1521749772&sr=8-7&keywords=lpe12+coupler

You can also get just the dummy battery with a USB voltage change cable so you can use your own power packs or the mains for about £20

https://www.amazon.co.uk/5V-8-4V-ACK-E12-Coupler-Battery-Adapter/dp/B0749LHWBS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1521749772&sr=8-3&keywords=lpe12+coupler

[tupp]

In addition to @BTM_Pix's suggestion, you could use an EOSM AC adaptor and connect the dummy EOSM battery to a Sony NP battery plate.  Then you could just use readily available and inexpensive Sony NP batteries (which come in various sizes/capacities), with the added option to use wall power with your EOSM.

[cantsin]

A new EOS-M 'Super 8' video, shot in ML Raw in 720p crop with an adapted Angenieux 6-80mm/f1.2 c-mount zoom:

This is pushing the limits of the camera, with lots of high ISO shots (3200 and higher) and the resulting artifacts...

 

[Alpicat]

On 15/03/2018 at 6:15 PM, tupp said:

ML has not been able to get higher raw resolutions from the full sensor, but I am not sure that is due to the EOSM lacking "power."  I assume that this current limitation doesn't involve the EOSM's SD card controller bottleneck, because the EOSM can obviously record full-HD+ resolutions at higher bit depths with crop modes.  So, there might be a way to get raw and "near-full-HD" without a crop.

I don't think they've been able to work out how to get higher resolutions than 720 vertical pixels to work properly when using the full aps-c sensor, due to the way the EOS M is designed, although they were trying find a way around that and they started having some success... but the video files so far resulted in a lot of corrupt frames. Here's the discussion about it: https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=16608.0  

On 22/03/2018 at 6:31 PM, byuri734 said:

MLV App reads the files with AWB as 6000k always. It is strange that it can read manual white balance properly. Do you know any app that can convert eos m files and read AWB properly? Also: the MLV app cannot convert to cinema dng in my mac (high sierra), only ProRes 4444. Do you know anything about this bug?

Perhaps MLVFS might be able to convert the files and read AWB properly? I believe it should now be able to work with lossless mlv files, however I don't know where to get the latest version of the program! With MLV App on Windows I can convert the MLVs to cdng without any issues (with the option to export uncompressed or lossless). Maybe try a previous build of the program to see if it works?

[Alpicat]

On 14/03/2018 at 10:40 PM, tupp said:

I also was under the impression that "movie crop mode" could be super16 in size.

We're getting close to this capability on the EOS M. As mentioned in the main EOSHD magic lantern video thread, the magic lantern people found a way to hack the SD card writing speed on Canon cameras, which on the EOS M would mean being able to shoot at max 2520x1072 continuously in 12 bit lossless raw in 5x zoom mode (2.35:1 aspect ratio), as opposed to just 5 seconds max recording time. The crop factor at this resolution is 3.33x which is between 16mm and super16. With a speed booster, the crop factor would get pretty close to micro 4/3. 

Someone has already successfully used this SD card hack on their EOS M, although for now it remains very experimental and possibly dangerous for the SD card - see his forum post here: https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=12862.msg199939#msg199939  and his video shot at 2.5k below

 

[tupp]

1 hour ago, Alpicat said:

We're getting close to this capability on the EOS M. As mentioned in the main EOSHD magic lantern video thread, the magic lantern people found a way to hack the SD card writing speed on Canon cameras, which on the EOS M would mean being able to shoot at max 2520x1072 continuously in 12 bit lossless raw in 5x zoom mode (2.35:1 aspect ratio), as opposed to just 5 seconds max recording time. The crop factor at this resolution is 3.33x which is between 16mm and super16. With a speed booster, the crop factor would get pretty close to micro 4/3.

Wow!  This is great!

 

I talked to Photodiox at NAB and they are considering making a M4/3-to-EOSM adapter, so it might be possible to use a Metabones BMPCC speedbooster with this scenario!

 

Thanks for the update!