What was the first professional camera to shoot LOG gamma?

[webrunner5]

31 minutes ago, jonpais said:

and that is what rec2020 will be doing for the following thirty years!

 

And you are probably right about that.

I just looked up when SD cards were invented. It was in 1999. I would bet that was probably the beginning of when you could have Log files loaded into a camera. Just a guess on my part. Sony Memory Stick was invented in 1998. I bet those 2 items started this thing about changeable Logs.

Somehow I remember we had setup things that could be removed of some kind, in the Sony ENG cameras I used in the TV station I worked at. And that was Way before 1998 LoL. We, as cameramen, were not allowed to touch them. And we were restricted to not F ing around too much with any camera settings. It was so all the cameras out in the field all looked the same. But maybe I am wrong. Long time ago. I have owned a Lot of more Modern ENG cameras on my own years later. So I may be confusing it with one of them..

I still own 3 or 4 of them. They have been at my daughters house in California for Years and years in the Original big ass plastic cases they come in. One of them is a Sony 3 2/3' Plumbicon Tube camera that I still think put out the most beautiful signal I ever seen.

[maxotics]

21 minutes ago, jonpais said:

And, I’m sorry, but you’ve been going on about how shooting in log, we’re losing all this vital color information, when in fact, the gains in dynamic range are more perceptible to the human eye.

The dynamic range may be more perceptible but that doesn't mean it gives a higher quality to the filmmaker than the gain in color information, no matter how small.  You accept that the trade-off exists above, and then try to argue with me again.  I don't get it.  It's always up to the filmmaker's subjective decision.  I've said that from day one and will keep saying it.  I only start arguing again when one say the trade-off doesn't exist.  Again, don't know why we're arguing?  Small, big, up to the filmmaker.

As for @HockeyFan12 second article which is from the beginning of Sony's S-LOG development.  Sony writes, "S-Log is a gamma function applied to Sony’s electronic cinematography cameras, in a manner that digitally originated images can be post-processed with similar techniques as those employed for film originated materials" 

They weren't trying to replace rec.709.  They were ONLY giving a filmmaker a way of shooting where he could push or pull the "digital negative" like a film negative.  S-LOG was designed for filmmakers were used to the ability to push or pull their FILM!  They didn't design it to provide a "better" image than what the camera already recorded in rec.709 with a LOG curve already applied, as @webrunner5 pointed out.  Just a different one.

In the exposure guide Sony gives these specs

Table 1 F35 Dynamic Range in Cine Mode
ISO S/N Exposure Latitude over18%
Exposure Latitude below 18%
Total Latitude (Dmin to Dmax)

450 54.5dB +5.3 Stop -6.8 Stop 12.1 Stops
500 53.6dB +5.5 Stop -6.6 Stop 12.1 Stops
640 51.5dB +5.6 Stop -6.3 Stop 11.9 Stops 

Notice how the signal/noise at 450 is 54.5 and it is 51.5 as 640.  That tells the filmmaker that harder he "pushes" his digital negative the more noise he will experience.  So think of the noise difference between shooting 400 ISO on your Sony/Panasonic camera and 800 ISO in LOG gammas.  

The reason sony didn't go into color loss is that any filmmaker who uses film is ACUTELY AWARE of color loss when pushing negative stock.  Now again, Sony isn't going to tell the users of their cameras how to shoot.  But I am going to tell any young filmmaker, who has only known digital video, that they want to be careful jumping to conclusions about what 8-bit LOG gammas can do, and cannot do.

[webrunner5]

W

 

[jonpais]

@maxotics I never said there were no trade offs. You can’t just assume that all filmmakers are completely unaware of how log works. Most everyone here has done testing with numerous profiles - any filmmaker worth his salt has. In just the past year, I’ve done extensive testing with no fewer than three. And apparently, most are voting with their eyes. I’m not quite sure what you mean by higher dynamic range may be more perceptible but that doesn’t mean higher quality. If anyone here wouldn’t like to capture 14 stops of dynamic range (equivalent to film stock - possibly much higher than a print that reaches the theater, who knows?) with no detectable degradation in color, please speak up!

[IronFilm]

13 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah it looks like the Sony F35 was made in 2004 at the start. This movie "Bones" was shot, along with, a Arri film camera in it in 2005. So that is a year earlier than what I posted on the 3 ccd Sony camera.

https://onset.shotonwhat.com/gallery/on-location-bones-2005/?tag=1721

And the F23 is even older than the F35, and I'm pretty sure the F23 had slog. 

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

And the F23 is even older than the F35, and I'm pretty sure the F23 had slog. 

You be right on the F23.

1080P RGB 4:4:4 image capture and signal processing.

Intuitive film work-style architecture. Controls, indicators and menus follow cinematography conventions.

Variable Frame-rate in 1fps increments over and under cranking
- 1fps to 30fps @ 4:4:4 mode.
- 1fps to 60fps @ 4:2:2 mode.
- Interval recording (with ramp control).
- Shutter angle can be varied from 3.9 to 360 degrees.

High precision 14-bit AD conversion and high bit order digital signal processing for high latitude (dynamic range), and a accurate color reproduction.

Five preset plus custom gamma curves.
- One preset 10-bit "S-Log" gamma for ultra wide latitude
- Four preset hyper gamma curves.
- Cinematographers can create custom gamma curves.

High precision, reinforced B4 Lens Mount.

Compact and flexible design, the camera can be mounted in confined spaces and operated from any side.
- Top or rear, direct docking to the SRW-1.
- Dual link for tethered applications.

Included "Assistant's Control Panel" duplicates all the camera controls and indicators on the camera body.

Compatible with SR Motion; interval recording, select FPS, slow shutter and digital accelerating, decelerating and linear speed ramps.

Directly compatible with ARRI cinematography accessories.

12V and 24V DC accessory power outputs.

Camera setup can be saved to Memory Stick® media.

[jonpais]

13 hours ago, maxotics said:

As for @HockeyFan12 second article which is from the beginning of Sony's S-LOG development.  Sony writes, "S-Log is a gamma function applied to Sony’s electronic cinematography cameras, in a manner that digitally originated images can be post-processed with similar techniques as those employed for film originated materials" 

They weren't trying to replace rec.709.  They were ONLY giving a filmmaker a way of shooting where he could push or pull the "digital negative" like a film negative.  S-LOG was designed for filmmakers were used to the ability to push or pull their FILM!  They didn't design it to provide a "better" image than what the camera already recorded in rec.709 with a LOG curve already applied, as @webrunner5 pointed out.  Just a different one.

In the exposure guide Sony gives these specs

Table 1 F35 Dynamic Range in Cine Mode
ISO S/N Exposure Latitude over18%
Exposure Latitude below 18%
Total Latitude (Dmin to Dmax)

450 54.5dB +5.3 Stop -6.8 Stop 12.1 Stops
500 53.6dB +5.5 Stop -6.6 Stop 12.1 Stops
640 51.5dB +5.6 Stop -6.3 Stop 11.9 Stops 

Notice how the signal/noise at 450 is 54.5 and it is 51.5 as 640.  That tells the filmmaker that harder he "pushes" his digital negative the more noise he will experience.  So think of the noise difference between shooting 400 ISO on your Sony/Panasonic camera and 800 ISO in LOG gammas.  

The reason sony didn't go into color loss is that any filmmaker who uses film is ACUTELY AWARE of color loss when pushing negative stock.  Now again, Sony isn't going to tell the users of their cameras how to shoot.  But I am going to tell any young filmmaker, who has only known digital video, that they want to be careful jumping to conclusions about what 8-bit LOG gammas can do, and cannot do.

Not so! They did want to exceed the confines of rec709. No mention of pushing or pulling of film like the old days. The idea is to capture more of the sensor information during recording and greater flexibilty in post to achieve the filmmaker’s creative intent. Sony takes pains to point out the benefits of shooting in a wider color gamut than rec709. Their goal, and that of most manufacturers today, is to surpass the quality of 35mm film.  

Why do you persist in making up stories to suit your world view?

From Sony’s website:

The evolution of camera technology means that the sensors in modern cameras are now capable of matching, or even surpassing, the quality of 35mm film.

The problem is that existing video formats don’t support the vast amount of information captured by a modern camera sensor. The result: reduced dynamic range and colour information.

S-Log is a gamma curve designed to record and transmit as much of the information recorded by your camera’s sensor as possible. S-Log breathes life into your images by preserving the wide colour gamut and dynamic range recorded by the sensor. Then, in post-production, you create the image you want as part of the grading process, with greater artistic control over the finished product.

CAPTURE A WIDE RANGE OF TONES

The wide tone area captured by S-Log makes it especially effective when shooting subjects which tend to experience loss of details in shadows or overblown highlights. Scenes which were impossible to shoot before, such as those with strong sunlight and dark shadows can be captured in far more detail.

SHOOT IN A WIDE COLOUR GAMUT

Normal video footage is shot in the REC.709 colour gamut, but material recorded in S-Log is recorded in the much wider S-Gamut colour space. Put simply, the wider the colour gamut, the more colour information can be recorded and the more vibrant and realistic your images will look.

MORE INFORMATION, MORE CONTROL

S-Log captures far more information than standard REC.709 footage can record, giving you more control over the finished image in post-production. Instead of exposing for highlights or shadows when shooting, you can capture all of this information and choose how you want to display it later.

 

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

You be right on the F23.

1080P RGB 4:4:4 image capture and signal processing.

And if any one feels like buying one, there is a Sony F23 for under US$3K on ebay right now:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-F23-Cinealta-Digital-Cinema-Camera/282528230666

[maxotics]

5 hours ago, jonpais said:

No mention of pushing or pulling of film like the old days.

From the Sony technical document you claim there is "no mention of pushing and pulling":

3.1 Changing the Sensitivity (Push Process / Pull Process) The most common method is to adjust the MASTER GAIN of the camera as shown in Table 4. The image contrast that appears on camera viewfinders and the on-set displays will remain consistent, hence it is easier to monitor

3.1.2 Push Process Increasing camera gain will improve camera sensitivity but will increase the camera noise floor. When extra dynamic range is required, the exposure value should be defined according to the light meter readings as in film.

3.1.3 Pull Process Reducing the camera gain will improve the signal to noise ratio performance. This technique is suited for blue/green screen effects shots where pulling a clean key is of prime importance. It should be noted that the camera dynamic range will be reduced. Chart 1. Comparing the Differences in Effects of Push/Pull Processing between S-Log and film Push Processing (+ve) Pull Processing (-ve) Contrast Latitude Graininess Contrast Latitude Graininess Film Increases Narrows Increases Reduces Widens Decreases S-Log No changes No changes Increases No changes Narrows Decreas

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

And the F23 is even older than the F35, and I'm pretty sure the F23 had slog.

Thanks @IronFilm!

[jonpais]

But it’s not all about pushing and pulling! It’s about obtaining better image quality than rec709. Which you denied just moments earlier. And you go on about shooting at higher ISOs introducing noise as though only you understand that. And contrary to your distorted version of reality, the reason Sony ‘didn’t go into color loss’ is because Sony has determined that SLog produces more vibrant color and dynamic range. 

[jonpais]

Cameras and display technology go hand in hand. rec709 has got nothing whatever to do with the 35mm film look. It is a standard developed for HD television. Time to move on.

[webrunner5]

I found this on Slog, Noise etc. better explained than I can do. I at least found it interesting. Applies a bit to what we are talking about.

http://www.xdcam-user.com/2014/03/understanding-sonys-slog3-it-isnt-really-noisy/

[jonpais]

What we have to consider is the entire process - from capture to finishing to delivery to distribution. Screen shots may be misleading because h264 is meant to be viewed as a moving image. A tiny bit of innocuous noise in a screen grab may be annoyingly obvious when dancing about when projected in a theater or on a computer monitor. Noise may also be aggravated when uploading to video sharing platforms. On the other hand, it could be mitigated by downscaling from 4K to 1080p. Noise will be amplified by the higher local contrast of HDR television. So there are a host of considerations to take into account.

[webrunner5]

15 minutes ago, jonpais said:

What we have to consider is the entire process - from capture to finishing to delivery to distribution. Screen shots may be misleading because h264 is meant to be viewed as a moving image. A tiny bit of innocuous noise in a screen grab may be annoyingly obvious when dancing about when projected in a theater or on a computer monitor. Noise may also be aggravated when uploading to video sharing platforms. On the other hand, it could be mitigated by downscaling from 4K to 1080p. Noise may also be amplified by the higher local contrast of HDR television. So there are a host of considerations to take into account.

Plus one frame forward or backwards of the screen grab may look totally different. I , and I am sure others sure as hell don't take the worse looking frame grab to show LoL.

But it does give others some idea, with little band width, to show our stuff!