Jittery Pans with a6500 / a6300

[Mark Romero 2]

Firstly, sorry if this is supposed to go in the Shooting sub-forum and not here. But since it is (kind of) an equipment question, thought it might belong in the main forum.

I tend to get jittery pans with my Sony cameras (currently have an a6500, formerly had an a6300).

Notice as the camera pans left:

https://youtu.be/YUNFNs9e_E0?t=1m42s

I am using the a6500 on a Zhiyun crane. Because I didn't have an ND filter for this lens, I am stopped down to f/11, shooting at 24fps (23.98), and 1/50th shutter speed.

It doesn't look like rolling shutter to me. It just looks like I am panning in "steps."

There are a couple of other areas in that video where it looks jittery to me as well.

The original footage looks jittery, as does the optimized footage once I upload to resolve.

Any thoughts on what is causing this???

Thanks in advance.

[Mckinise]

Try 30fps and slower movement if you are shooting UHD.  60fps if you are shooting 1080p.

[Mark Romero 2]

Just now, Mckinise said:

Try 30fps and slower movement if you are shooting UHD.  60fps if you are shooting 1080p.

Thanks for the input.

I can always try 30fps, but I guess I thought I would see more blur and less of the almost "stop and go" motion.

[Thomas Hill]

Seems like the pans with the most jitter were also the fastest ones, so you could try slowing down the movements or, like @Mckinise said, bump up the fps.

[Mark Romero 2]

38 minutes ago, Thomas Hill said:

Seems like the pans with the most jitter were also the fastest ones, so you could try slowing down the movements or, like @Mckinise said, bump up the fps.

Thanks, but I hope someone could maybe explain WHY there is that jitter?

I know that may sound like a dumb question, but I would expect to see blur (or rolling shutter).

I've seen people do fast pans with the a6300 / a6500 to demonstrate the rolling shutter, but when they do, I don't see that jittery effect. Just blur and rolling shutter.

I ain't no engineer but it would seem to me that using a faster fps would make for MORE jitter...

Anyway, thanks again. Maybe I am just not seeing the same thing you guys are seeing.

[Arikhan]

You say, you shot at F11. Which lens did you use?

[Mark Romero 2]

7 minutes ago, Arikhan said:

You say, you shot at F11. Which lens did you use?

10-18 f/4.

I didn't have any ND filters for it.

[Arikhan]

OK. I own and use the NX1 and the A6500 too and shoot high end architecture / real estate / property and interiors too. I've had these issues too (with both cameras) but now got rid of them. I will write down my detailed experience and some solutions later this day, as now I'll get out for some sports.

[UncleBobsPhotography]

It seems to me that the low frame rate is the only problem. If you play it back in 1/4 speed you notice that it moves the same amount in each frame, and it´s not actually jumping back and forth (which is what I consider jitter). It almost feels like the frame rate is less than 24 fps, but I don't have the time to measure it. If the shot was more blurry it would be less obvious, but I would say increasing the frame rate would be the best way to go. This tack sharp kind of video isn't emulating film anyway, so no need to keep it at 24fps.

[jonpais]

I think it’s judder and the two ways to combat it are by slower panning and higher frame rates. I would try both and compare to the results you’re getting now.

[Arikhan]

@Mark Romero 2 - here are my thoughts for shooting architecture / interiors, etc. with the A6500/NX1 (!).  My claims base on own experience with some famous (and extremely picky about detail and resolution)  architecture's offices and luxury real estate dealers, possessed by by "Gigapixel mania". These guys seem to have invented the pixel peeping...

I own and use the A6500 and the NX1. As you know, these two cameras are exceptional in 4K when talking detail and sharpness - much "sharper" than even much more expensive dedicated video/production cameras. But...there is a price to pay for this sharpness - and the "micro-jitter" or "stroboscope effect" is one of the disadvantages.

Sometimes, when shooting 4K even on tripod and panning with A6500/NX1 and stopping down the lens to f5.6-f11 for a maximum of sharpness and resolution, you will encounter the stroboscoping (jitter) effect.

Let's take a look a the different use cases:

1. Panning

When panning, try to pan smoothly, personally I pan with these two cameras a 90 degree angle in 12+ seconds - not faster. I do it this way when shooting with gibmal, but also when using the cameras on tripod

2. Using a motorized gimbal

Today's gimbals are phantastic. But still, even people who claim to be "very experienced" do often a superficial balancing and calibration. Spend a lot of time on precise balance and (micro) calibration of your gimbal, you will see a huge difference when done right.

As you might know, the Zhiyun or Moza DO NOT counterbalance vertical shake. Therefore, please put a piece of mousepad (cut in the shape you need) between camera and gimbal plate. My piece of mousepad is about 2mm thick and it helps a lot avoiding jitter - because it seems to be quite efficient when buffering vertical shake (when runnung, stepping, or running stairs)

3. Practice running with gimbal

You might say now, this is a trivial advice. It's not! Most guys believe they do it the right way. They don't. Two months ago I payed 600,- EUR for an 10 hours seminar / course with a gimbal and steadyshot pro. It was great, because there I learned I was a nob. It could take even years to some users to learn to use a gimbal / staedypod properly.

You have to move and walk like a ninja, to use your hands and arms independently from your body, etc. it's not as easy as it might sound.

4. Frame rate / Shutter speed

This is essential. You are based in a NTSC country. As you shoot interiors / property, you don't need to shoot 24fps.

Shoot 30fps. As seen in your video, you usually use 3-6 seconds takes for your video. When shooting 30fps in NTSC, you can even slow this a little bit down in post, by putting your shot in a little bit faster timeline than initially shot....

So, when you shoot 30fps, try to keep shutter speed at 1/50. This will make each frame more "blurry" then when shooting at 1/60 - and will diminish the "stroboscoping effect" / jitter substantially.

Put a ND filter on your lenses, don't try to reduce the amount of light by increasing your shutter speed. Increasing the shutter speed and panning will accentuate the stroboscoping effect.

5. Use OSS / IBIS if possible...but test the same takes WITHOUT...there are some cases, when micro jitter disappears with IBIS off...Just test...

6. You have to rethink the term "interior video"

When you shoot interior, (mostly) nothing will move. So, why do you shoot video? Shoot stills!

Let me give you some example out of your video: The takes 0:20s-0:25s / 0:25s-->0:28s / 0:51s-->0:58s / 1:19-->1:24, etc. WHY do you shoot video? Why? Shoot stills and create the pan / zoom in effect IN POST...

Shoot on a tripod. Shoot 3+ exposures (depending on contrast and DR expectations) for each take and RAW at base ISO (100 for the A6500). When shooting like this, you could get a unbelievable amount of DR and great colors within 5 minutes. Blend your shots and apply luminosity masks in post, if necessary...You will get a DR you could never get within the baked in h264 when filming...

Now...Your 10-18mm Sony lens is great...But it's a 15mm on the crop A6500. You have a FOV of 76 degrees vertically, this should be more than sufficient....You have a horizontal angle of view with this lens at 99 degrees. IF you need a wider angle (=more FOV) - my picky customers refuse to accept wider angles (FOV) than about 120 degress, because they find it "unnatural" - take more photos by panning and stiching in post. When talking 120 degrees field of view, we talk about 3 horizontal takes. BUT: use a panoramic tripod head (here in German from 130 - 190 EUROS) for this, you have to get the proper nodal point before stiching...If needed, shoot vertically, but you need more takes to stich in post...There is plenty of cheap or almost free stiching software out there.

Then import your post processed photo (after sing RAW post pro, blending, stitching) in your NLE and create the pan / zoom effect in a spectacular resolution and DR....NOONE will know, it's not film...

BTW: Shooting f11 with the 10-18mm on the A6500 is NOT useful, as for most APSC cameras, f11 is where difraction starts to kick in (in stills quite visible). At this wide angle (10-18mm), f8 should be enough to get maximum of sharpness and resolution.

Have fun!

[Grimor]

28 minutes ago, Arikhan said:

Therefore, please put a piece of mousepad (cut in the shape you need) between camera and gimbal plate. My piece of mousepad is about 2mm thick and it helps a lot avoiding jitter - because it seems to be quite efficient when buffering vertical shake (when runnung, stepping, or running stairs) 

Sorry, but it makes no sense to me.

When you put a piece of foam and put the plate screw really tight (because you dont want to loose your camera) it does'nt affect the image. Vibrations will be almost the same. Only a 4th axis device will do the trick when stairs /runnig , etc) 

[Mark Romero 2]

On 2/3/2018 at 7:48 AM, Arikhan said:

@Mark Romero 2 - here are my thoughts for shooting architecture / interiors, etc. with the A6500/NX1 (!).  My claims base on own experience with some famous (and extremely picky about detail and resolution)  architecture's offices and luxury real estate dealers, possessed by by "Gigapixel mania". These guys seem to have invented the pixel peeping...

I own and use the A6500 and the NX1. As you know, these two cameras are exceptional in 4K when talking detail and sharpness - much "sharper" than even much more expensive dedicated video/production cameras. But...there is a price to pay for this sharpness - and the "micro-jitter" or "stroboscope effect" is one of the disadvantages.

Sometimes, when shooting 4K even on tripod and panning with A6500/NX1 and stopping down the lens to f5.6-f11 for a maximum of sharpness and resolution, you will encounter the stroboscoping (jitter) effect.

Let's take a look a the different use cases:

1. Panning

When panning, try to pan smoothly, personally I pan with these two cameras a 90 degree angle in 12+ seconds - not faster. I do it this way when shooting with gibmal, but also when using the cameras on tripod

2. Using a motorized gimbal

Today's gimbals are phantastic. But still, even people who claim to be "very experienced" do often a superficial balancing and calibration. Spend a lot of time on precise balance and (micro) calibration of your gimbal, you will see a huge difference when done right.

As you might know, the Zhiyun or Moza DO NOT counterbalance vertical shake. Therefore, please put a piece of mousepad (cut in the shape you need) between camera and gimbal plate. My piece of mousepad is about 2mm thick and it helps a lot avoiding jitter - because it seems to be quite efficient when buffering vertical shake (when runnung, stepping, or running stairs)

3. Practice running with gimbal

You might say now, this is a trivial advice. It's not! Most guys believe they do it the right way. They don't. Two months ago I payed 600,- EUR for an 10 hours seminar / course with a gimbal and steadyshot pro. It was great, because there I learned I was a nob. It could take even years to some users to learn to use a gimbal / staedypod properly.

You have to move and walk like a ninja, to use your hands and arms independently from your body, etc. it's not as easy as it might sound.

4. Frame rate / Shutter speed

This is essential. You are based in a NTSC country. As you shoot interiors / property, you don't need to shoot 24fps.

Shoot 30fps. As seen in your video, you usually use 3-6 seconds takes for your video. When shooting 30fps in NTSC, you can even slow this a little bit down in post, by putting your shot in a little bit faster timeline than initially shot....

So, when you shoot 30fps, try to keep shutter speed at 1/50. This will make each frame more "blurry" then when shooting at 1/60 - and will diminish the "stroboscoping effect" / jitter substantially.

Put a ND filter on your lenses, don't try to reduce the amount of light by increasing your shutter speed. Increasing the shutter speed and panning will accentuate the stroboscoping effect.

5. Use OSS / IBIS if possible...but test the same takes WITHOUT...there are some cases, when micro jitter disappears with IBIS off...Just test...

6. You have to rethink the term "interior video"

When you shoot interior, (mostly) nothing will move. So, why do you shoot video? Shoot stills!

Let me give you some example out of your video: The takes 0:20s-0:25s / 0:25s-->0:28s / 0:51s-->0:58s / 1:19-->1:24, etc. WHY do you shoot video? Why? Shoot stills and create the pan / zoom in effect IN POST...

Shoot on a tripod. Shoot 3+ exposures (depending on contrast and DR expectations) for each take and RAW at base ISO (100 for the A6500). When shooting like this, you could get a unbelievable amount of DR and great colors within 5 minutes. Blend your shots and apply luminosity masks in post, if necessary...You will get a DR you could never get within the baked in h264 when filming...

Now...Your 10-18mm Sony lens is great...But it's a 15mm on the crop A6500. You have a FOV of 76 degrees vertically, this should be more than sufficient....You have a horizontal angle of view with this lens at 99 degrees. IF you need a wider angle (=more FOV) - my picky customers refuse to accept wider angles (FOV) than about 120 degress, because they find it "unnatural" - take more photos by panning and stiching in post. When talking 120 degrees field of view, we talk about 3 horizontal takes. BUT: use a panoramic tripod head (here in German from 130 - 190 EUROS) for this, you have to get the proper nodal point before stiching...If needed, shoot vertically, but you need more takes to stich in post...There is plenty of cheap or almost free stiching software out there.

Then import your post processed photo (after sing RAW post pro, blending, stitching) in your NLE and create the pan / zoom effect in a spectacular resolution and DR....NOONE will know, it's not film...

BTW: Shooting f11 with the 10-18mm on the A6500 is NOT useful, as for most APSC cameras, f11 is where difraction starts to kick in (in stills quite visible). At this wide angle (10-18mm), f8 should be enough to get maximum of sharpness and resolution.

Have fun!

Thank you for the very detailed list of suggestions. I had about four shoots over the last few days so haven't had a chance to try and implement them. But I wanted to say thank you and will let you know how they work out for me.

Thanks.

[ntblowz]

Its the OIS messing around, I had that same problem with Canon 10-18mm STM on 200D on gimbal, best is turn IS off and stabilize in post if needed. some of the shot I feel like OIS is fighting against the gimbal

[Mark Romero 2]

On 2/5/2018 at 12:15 AM, ntblowz said:

Its the OIS messing around, I had that same problem with Canon 10-18mm STM on 200D on gimbal, best is turn IS off and stabilize in post if needed. some of the shot I feel like OIS is fighting against the gimbal

Thanks for the suggestion.

I will have to do some tests when i have a free afternoon. Too busy this week with photo shoots (which is good, just need to get some filming done too).

[TwoScoops]

Yup, 30-60fps will help this a lot. You can notice a bit of this jitter even in films shot on 35mm at 24fps.

[hmcindie]

You have a mismatch with your framerate and the framerate of your editing timeline. That's what the causes the jumps between frames as the edit software drops frames.

Or not as the rest of the shots are smooth. Check your settings anyway.

[Amro Othman]

Interested to see what is the final solution here

[Mark Romero 2]

18 hours ago, hmcindie said:

You have a mismatch with your framerate and the framerate of your editing timeline. That's what the causes the jumps between frames as the edit software drops frames.

Or not as the rest of the shots are smooth. Check your settings anyway.

Hmmm...

Could be... I might have to retry this.

I usually drop my 4K clips on to a 1080p timeline in resolve... I wonder if I should just use resolves feature to automatically adjust the timeline to match with the clip?

[Mark Romero 2]

Actually, probably NOT a mis-match of timeline and footage frame rate because the footage itself looks jittery, too. Look at the corner joint of the two walls (between the tv and the large white closets).