Fuji X-H1. IBIS, Phase Detect 4K beast?

[anonim]

5 minutes ago, Matthew Hartman said:

At the end of the day we all have varied take aways. If we didn't wrap up our indentities so tightly into the things we purchase, we'd have more comfortable butts when someone comes along and purchases something else. One does not have to justify their preferences. Sometimes we are attracted to certain things that words can't facillitate.  

So nice formulation, at least for me. Great place and always great joy to meet such spirit shining between lines...

[Kisaha]

This is what Fuji does to us! Just put a 4:2:2 8 bit codec (if you can't make it 10bit) in there, a better touch screen implementation, a few wireless options that in 2018 most (not all, most, I have to be very careful how to use my non-native language) have and most (same as before) expects, and everyone would be happy!

The camera is not ground braking in anyway, so it won't stay in history for something that did first time, or extremely better than any other, so in the end, sales will indicate everything.

[mkabi]

20 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

I would guess probably not, the grip doesn't add another 70mm in height, or 857g, or make it any wider, or make it thicker. 

Thanks a lot this is very informative...

Just for the record, the pictures itself is kind of deceiving. Its about 18.2mm (~2cm) smaller on the wide end, the picture looks like its only 1 cm less wide, and are they including the strap hooks as part of the measurements? Because thats just negligible in my opinion. But the depth is what surprised me 85.5mm vs 82.6mm, obviously thicker from eyecup to end of grip... but in the picture you see it being smaller than the 1DX mark 2. Numbers don't lie

 Lastly, yes... 70mm seems like a lot of distance, but thats about 2.75 inches... now it doesn't seem like a lot does it? Again, the pictures are deceiving... Hopefully a direct comparison is coming along.... 

[Yurolov]

I love fuji and am biased in their favour. I had my cash ready excited to preorder this camera, but I just can't do it. For me, these more consumer cameras are good for getting a good image quickly in scenarios where you don't get a second take and where using my cinema camera would be impractical. If you are going to do long set-up times and many takes, then a cinema camera is better for that type of work.

Those are my criteria, yours may be different, so my judgment is based only these factors: can it take a quick shot? does it have good iq?

For me, it has good ergonomics and ibis, both ticks, but it is missing one crucial factor, and that is good face detect autofocus. What I am hearing from the videos is that it works on occasion. Even if it was at the level of the a6500 I would be fine with that as the ibis implementation is very good. But it seems to me a step behind the a6500. I just don't know at this stage if I can rely on it to get the image. I may be proven wrong but this is a consideration for me.

The second issue I have is with the image quality. Don't get me wrong the colours are great - it's the other factors that have me miffed. Firstly, there appears to be a great degree of digital sharpness that makes the images look videoy. I note the diffusion they used in the professional japanese production to limit this effect. Moreover, the motion cadence is just off and it may have to do, like Andrew said, with the omission of the ALL-I codec. It doesn't look natural to me like for instance a canon or gh5.

So I have decided to pass in this instance and see what canon has in store with their new mirrorless which if the rumours are true shall be 4k, will have ibis and will have autofcus face detect - the holy trinity. And nice colour science that you won't need to grade too much with the crappy 8bit codec they will no doubt give you. I don't mind the eos-m mount as the ef lenses are easily adapted.     

[Mark Romero 2]

Sounds like it would be a nice camera, and I am sure whomever buys one will be delighted with it.

But it also sounds kind of like it is a day late and a dollar short...

For that price, I think people might look at a GH5, or a G9, or an a6500, or a used a7R II, or...

Don't get me wrong; I wish them much success.

11 hours ago, IronFilm said:

X-H1 isn't pushing forward the whole industry, but it is however pushing forward Fuji! For that I am pleased to see.

Yes. Agree with this 110%

[Matthew Hartman]

Like Ironfilm said already it may not be ground breaking compared to the competition, but within Fuji you cannot denie that it is a groundbreaking step forward for Fuji. What it signals is that Fuji is to some degree listening to it's consumers and trust me, when any large tech company does that it's a huge achievement in and of itself as political as it is. 

This may not be the exact model for you, or me, or it may be. But try to see the bigger bird's eye view. More competition=lower prices and better products. (Theoretically) Who wins here? Always root for the small guy whether their product is A+ or not. It's a long game strategy. We drive the market with our wallets. 

1 hour ago, Yurolov said:

The second issue I have is with the image quality. Don't get me wrong the colours are great - it's the other factors that have me miffed. Firstly, there appears to be a great degree of digital sharpness that makes the images look videoy. I note the diffusion they used in the professional japanese production to limit this effect. Moreover, the motion cadence is just off and it may have to do, like Andrew said, with the omission of the ALL-I codec. It doesn't look natural to me like for instance a canon or gh5.

I couldn't agree with you more on these factors. Although I wouldn't exactly call the GH5 much better in this area, nor my beloved NX1. A lot of JVC's images come to mind here as well. I'm wondering if the digital sharpening can be turned down or off in camera? It is downscaling from a 5k sensor, so it may be actual resolution and not post sharpening at all. What I see is edge fringing and that can have the appearance of edge sharpening.  

But I want to be clear and state I realize not everyone is after a filmic look. For video production, where the format calls for that video-type look, it's perfect. Good colors, crisp image. 200mbit h.264 seems like a crippled codec however, I think if they were going to go 8bit they should increase the data rate or go HEVC. But for those looking for an out-of-the-box experience/color I'm sure it delivers just fine. It's not an awful image, just not my cup of tea. 

[jonpais]

Andrew Smallman, in his blog Camera Ergonomics, has quite a few interesting observations about the design decisions and handling of today’s cameras. He begins by identifying four phases of camera use: Setup, Prepare, Capture and Review and gives a breakdown of how each design decision affects the user experience from picking up the camera to reviewing the footage. The following are just a few of his remarks; I encourage you to read his blog if you’re at all interested in the subject.

Re: Aperture ring on the lens barrel

It requires more actions each more complex to operate an aperture ring  (requires entire left hand and two fingers to move) than it does to turn an optimally positioned control dial (can be done with right index finger only).

Re: Shutter Speed Dial

With the dial in the usual position on the right side of the camera top plate the user must release grip on the camera with the right hand, support the mass of the camera with the left hand then reach back with two fingers to turn the dial. A mode dependent control dial requires only a small movement of the right index finger to make the required adjustment with no need to alter grip with either hand.

Re: Stacked Dials

There are variations on this theme. Some cameras have dial over dial, others have dial over lever module or similar. In either case it is not a matter of if but when the user will accidentally change a parameter unintentionally. Yet some new cameras persist with this feature which is entirely un-necessary for and counterproductive to a streamlined, fast reliable user interface.

Re: Top Plate LCD Screens

were required for SLRs and early  DSLRs as there was no other place to display camera data. But now all LCD screen data and much more can be displayed on the rear monitor and/or EVF if fitted, making the LCD screen redundant. Yet these relics of the past keep reappearing on modern cameras (such as the Sony RX10, 1,2,3.) which have no requirement for such a display which takes up valuable camera real estate which could be put to better use.

[jonpais]

On 2/16/2018 at 12:19 PM, jonpais said:

That shoulder LCD I think is about as useful as the touch bar on a Macbook Pro. One reviewer says he can't count the number of times he's forgotten to put an SD card in his camera and the LCD reminded him. WTF? The implementation by Panasonic is incomparably smarter; just by touching the LCD screen, you can access a dozen parameters and change them on the fly. And for a company not known for their aesthetics, the video info display on the GH5 is a work of art. And speaking of SD cards, would it have killed Fuji to allow recording to both cards simultaneously? Can user settings all be stored on a card? AFAIK, the touch screen on the X-H1 doesn't have tap to focus either. Is there a reason why a headphone jack couldn't have been included in the body? And if not zebras, why blinking highlights? They have no known value and are not programmable, so virtually useless for judging proper exposure, whether a stills shooter or a filmmaker. No teleconverter mode, which can be invaluable when you need that extra reach: both Sony and Panasonic have systems that essentially turn each lens into two. No hybrid log gamma for those interested in quickly uploading HDR videos to the Web. A flippy screen isn't absolutely essential if you've got a functioning remote app, but Fuji has neither. Being able to record with an external mic and the internal at the same time is a clever idea, but where are the videos showing the UI? Does Fuji still incorporate the all but useless tiny level meters found on the X-T2, or is it possible to see the audio level meter on its own dedicated page on the LCD? And apparently the audio coming out of the expensive VPB is distorted, rendering monitoring impossible until a firmware update is issued. The power booster is an essential piece of kit, but it makes flying on a gimbal or putting the camera in a cage all but impossible and makes carrying the camera cumbersome. It is also just another source of possible malfunctions. No 60p for times when you want beautiful 4K slow motion shots. A micro HDMI port, reviled by all filmmakers. Not only are proper exposure tools missing, but the information that is included in the display is inscrutably tiny. I really have to squint to even just read the exposure meter on the X-T2. The shutter speed and aperture dials are right at your fingertips on the Panasonic - no need to remove your eye from the EVF - with the Fuji, it's a two handed operation that may or may not require taking attention away from your shooting. And again, no shutter angle, which comes in so handy when you're shooting at different frame rates and avoids inadvertently shooting at the wrong shutter speed. 

I’m quoting yesterday’s post for a reality check. Is or is not the Video Prioritized Display on the GH5  logically organized and streamlined, allowing rapid customization of settings? Is the ability to record to two cards simultaneously not a useful feature? Does a battery grip make flying a camera on a single handed gimbal easier or more difficult? Is it or is it not more convenient to have a headphone jack on the camera body? Is a remote app capable of recording 4K genuinely a detestable idea, as @Mattias Burling pretends? Or battery life of 3 hours on just one battery with no recording limit and no splitting up of files? Is a full size HDMI port in some way inferior to a micro HDMI port? Is 4K 60p not desirable? Being able to set shutter angle? Zebras anyone?

@Mattias Burling has accused me of being a hater and forcing my opinions on others, but it seems to me he is the one resorting to trolling me at every opportunity, lashing out at those who don't share his beliefs and online bullying. I guess I need to look in the mirror too, because I consider the comments above to be statements of fact, not opinion, and I don’t see any hate speech here, apart from the vicious replies by @Mattias Burling. Also, there seems to be a mistaken notion that I was only referring to ergonomics, whereas it is plain to see that not all of my criticisms of the camera were directed at handling alone. But I guess it bears repeating: image quality does not exist in a vacuum. 

[jonpais]

As you can see, I was perfectly willing to go along with @Mattias Burling regarding a fully articulating screen, but he must continue pressing on:

20 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Yes, Im very very happy they didn't incorporate a fully articulating screen since I then would never even consider the camera. 
Remote app I guess could be fun, but I would hate using it so I don't care if its in there or not.

In what way, shape or form would a remote app capable of 4K hinder someone from making videos? And can anyone explain to me how using an external monitor or another camera [sic] for vlogging is more convenient than using the remote app?

"I don't care if it's there or not". Well, maybe @Mattias Burling doesn't, but lots of us do. I don't shoot 4K 60p or anamorphic either, but I'm not about to dictate to others what's important to them.

 

[Yurolov]

Vlogging implies a greater degree of movement which generally would benefit from a fully articulating screen so you can compose your shot on the fly wherever you are.  

[Prandi]

for vloggingI take an iphone or my C700, but no gh5 or similar. :-)f

[webrunner5]

I like the colors, they do look good,  but better suited for V loggers, Docs, Interviewers. But for a Cine look, just like a lot of cameras, it is too good. I can't say it looks no more Digital than a GH5, the A7r mk II does in 4k. I do think the GH5s is a bit better for some reason, more like the original Sony A7s. I have not seen a 1080p output on the new Fuji.

Like I have said, I just don't think hardly any of the cameras that are Not pure Cine cameras have a Filmic, Cine look to them in 4k. They look Digital. And I guess unless we are capable of spending 8 grand or more for a camera that shoots Raw, other than a ML Canon, or a BM camera in ProRes or Raw we are going to have to live with it. It seems now in this day and age Raw is the only way to get a good look in anything @ 2k or above. That is the way I see it as of this time.

But this new Fuji does seem like it is going to have some nice output for a lot of "Normal" people and most of the tools they will need, not all, but it will get the job done.  And since I am not Normal I am not buying it LoL.

[jonpais]

55 minutes ago, Prandi said:

for vloggingI take an iphone or my C700, but no gh5 or similar. :-)f

Yes, I can see how vlogging with a C700 makes more sense than with a GH5.  Body alone weighs 8 pounds. Oh, and spare change? $28,000? Would you be so kind as to share some of your vlogs? Unusual, since you were so anxious as to whether an app would work with your XC10, but now it's somehow no longer important...

[webrunner5]

7 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Yes, I can see how vlogging with a C700 makes more sense than with a GH5. 

Well I did hear 1 person has actually bought a Canon C700, and now we know who it was! 

[webrunner5]

On 2/15/2018 at 8:05 PM, Trek of Joy said:

They seemed to have really done the engineering right. Fuji says they have dual processors just for IBIS:

"A three-axis accelerometer, a three-axis gyro sensor and a dedicated dual processor work together to carry out processing and correction approximately 10,000 times every second to achieve image stabilization performance with advanced speed and precision"

Plus the new shutter:

"The top plate of the FUJIFILM X-H1's shutter unit is equipped with suspension for absorbing delicate shock generated by the operation of the mechanical shutter. This minimizes camera shake risks to maximize the effect of image stabilization. The mechanism reduces shutter noise to the lowest level in the history of X Series"

So far it looks better than Sony, but not quite Olympus. Will be interesting to see side-by-side comparisons. 

Chris

I would guess probably not, the grip doesn't add another 70mm in height, or 857g, or make it any wider, or make it thicker. 

Interesting comparison also.

http://camerasize.com/compact/#679.498,772.498,ha,t

[jonpais]

5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

http://camerasize.com/compact/#679.498,772.498,ha,t

yep, I can see clearly now how there was no room for a larger battery or headphone jack and how the overpriced battery grip wasn't just an accessory to extract more money from consumers.

[Prandi]

@jonpais
You're pretty annoying ;-)
It already knows everyone that you can read on the display ev. Maybe you need a new pair of glasses?
Then 4k60p .... because that has every camera and very important "Zebra" ... and I do not forget the batteries ojee .....
Battery grip a nogo ... I laugh at me dead slowly nice :-)

[jonpais]

55 minutes ago, Prandi said:

@jonpais
You're pretty annoying ;-)
It already knows everyone that you can read on the display ev. Maybe you need a new pair of glasses?
Then 4k60p .... because that has every camera and very important "Zebra" ... and I do not forget the batteries ojee .....
Battery grip a nogo ... I laugh at me dead slowly nice :-)

Thank you, Prandi, I appreciate your invaluable insights.

Vlogging footage shot with the C700?

All talk, no walk.

 

[anonim]

7 hours ago, Matthew Hartman said:

 More competition=lower prices... (Theoretically)

No, I'm afraid... not even theoretically... it seems to me that we are frogs in the pot, pushed to accomodate every year to more 500 $/Euro degree...

[Matthew Hartman]

2 hours ago, anonim said:

No, I'm afraid... not even theoretically... it seems to me that we are frogs in the pot, pushed to accomodate every year to more 500 $/Euro degree...

Canon (or any other) can't sell you the camera you don't buy.