Sony a7 III discussion

[Robert Collins]

27 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

Sony can but it hasn't been utilised in the aloha series which is why I was excited about the fact that the purported as7iii will be getting Venice color science. 

People in video do not use the term color science in the same way as someone like Goethe did (I imagine). Simply put, it means how a camera reproduces color and also why it does it this way (which is color theory e.g. skin tone preference). There may be other definitions too. But we all know what we mean.  

Your arguments are semantic. Mine are substantive. 

I have explained to you why there are differences and what these mean to the final image. None of which you have responded to. 

1. Subject isolation.

2. Dimensionality.

3. Skin tones and uniformity (see above).

Now you can tell me why you think the Sony is better. 

 

27 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

Sony can but it hasn't been utilised in the aloha series which is why I was excited about the fact that the purported as7iii will be getting Venice color science. 

People in video do not use the term color science in the same way as someone like Goethe did (I imagine). Simply put, it means how a camera reproduces color and also why it does it this way (which is color theory e.g. skin tone preference). There may be other definitions too. But we all know what we mean.  

Your arguments are semantic. Mine are substantive. 

I have explained to you why there are differences and what these mean to the final image. None of which you have responded to. 

1. Subject isolation.

2. Dimensionality.

3. Skin tones and uniformity (see above).

Now you can tell me why you think the Sony is better. 

Honestly your arguments are not substantive

For Instance you claim that Canon colors have more ‘dimensionality’ but you don’t explain how and why. I could equally claim Sony colors look more 3D rather than the 2D of Canon colors. Are these substantive arguments or two people BSing each other?

[Sage]

Robert, a few years ago, I felt similarly. Over the last year though, I've really come to appreciate color science, specifically what is beyond the scope of the usual color grading tools.

[Deadcode]

5 minutes ago, Sage said:

Robert, a few years ago, I felt similarly. Over the last year though, I've really come to appreciate color science, specifically what is beyond the scope of the usual color grading tools.

Dont you wanna buy an A7 III to match to your Alexa? :D (and share the result of course)

[hansel]

@Robert Collins I am a noob but if you can't see the differences how Nikon/Canon render mixed lighting compared to Sony like @Django was trying to show you than colour is existentially lost on you or you are trolling....

[Sage]

1 minute ago, Deadcode said:

Dont you wanna buy an A7 III to match to your Alexa? :D (and share the result of course)

Possibly; is there a way to get 10 bit from the camera?

This unusual comparison will be relevant to the discussion; an image with two different color sciences (matched brightness and saturation):

GH5 VLog + Varicam 35

GH5 VLog + Alexa LogC & Emotive

 

[Deadcode]

4 minutes ago, Sage said:

Possibly; is there a way to get 10 bit from the camera?

This unusual comparison will be relevant to the discussion; an image with two different color sciences (matched brightness and saturation):

GH5 VLog + Varicam 35

GH5 VLog + Alexa LogC & Emotive

 

 

I know your GH5 - > Alexa work, that's why i asked.

No, non of the consumer Sony cameras can send 10 bit signal to external recorder or record in 10 bit to SD Card. Probably the A7S III will.

But you can start working with A7 III till the A7S III arrives :P

[Sage]

I'll look into it.. The number one priority is 10 bit cameras; but if things align, possibly

[Robert Collins]

21 minutes ago, hansel said:

@Robert Collins I am a noob but if you can't see the differences how Nikon/Canon render mixed lighting compared to Sony like @Django was trying to show you than colour is existentially lost on you or you are trolling....

To be honest, I think this is a slightly different issue. I do think that Sony has auto white balance issues which result in funky/unattractive colors in some instances. And it is difficult to get consistent colors out of Sony’s.

[Django]

Sadly it isn't just AWB.. Sony are still experimenting & trying to figure out which way to go with their overall color science. It seems the latest series is favoring a magenta push perhaps in an effort to get closer to Canon colors and get rid of the previous series yellow skintones but now the blues are all purple-ish lol..

 

 

[kye]

8 hours ago, sam said:

Do you and Kye share an account? You both have admittedly little experience, yet look at your posts.  Are you the student or the teacher?

Lol.

It depends.  I can't speak for anyone else, but in combination with not knowing a huge amount about film (in comparison to those in the industry or who have been at it as a hobby for years) I know quite a considerable amount about topics that are very near film-making that are sometimes applicable.

I think it must be difficult for someone who has a built up a body of knowledge to understand that someone might not know the first thing about one thing, but know hundreds of times more about the next thing, when in their experience those two things get learned at the same time.  Happy to talk further about how/why this is if you're interested.

I guess my point is that you shouldn't be surprised if someone doesn't have the same distribution of knowledge as you.  They might be the student AND the teacher, depending on what it is that is being discussed.

I should add that I try and only talk about what I know about, but sometimes I don't know I don't know, sometimes I'm coming from such a different place that it gets all mixed up and misinterpreted, and sometimes it's impossible to get a message across - text based communication is a terrible way of communicating really.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Maybe this calls for a separate topic on color science?

[sam]

@kye less than three months ago, you signed up here asking for advice about getting your canon a look that would suit your tastes. You stated you had limited knowledge. Your goal was to capture pleasing images of your family life.  (The most important images imo!)

Why do you then proceed to comment on set protocol?  Why would you then dish out advice on image manipulation using software that takes many months if not years to fully utilize, when your only knowledge admittedly comes from a relatively short time browsing YouTube and the web?  How about doling out advice on what type of camera when you've only used a few pieces of entry level gear? 
Without any real experience or standard of reference, how do you know the teachers of your internet education have any more experience than you? 

Truly curious about what compels individuals to behave in such a manner.

6 hours ago, kye said:

I should add that I try and only talk about what I know about, but sometimes I don't know I don't know

Well thats the crux of the problem isnt it?

If you want to help others, simply post links to sources like I did for you.  

 

[kye]

2 hours ago, sam said:

@kye less than three months ago, you signed up here asking for advice about getting your canon a look that would suit your tastes. You stated you had limited knowledge. Your goal was to capture pleasing images of your family life.  (The most important images imo!)

Why do you then proceed to comment on set protocol?  Why would you then dish out advice on image manipulation using software that takes many months if not years to fully utilize, when your only knowledge admittedly comes from a relatively short time browsing YouTube and the web?  How about doling out advice on what type of camera when you've only used a few pieces of entry level gear? 
Without any real experience or standard of reference, how do you know the teachers of your internet education have any more experience than you? 

Truly curious about what compels individuals to behave in such a manner.

Well thats the crux of the problem isnt it?

If you want to help others, simply post links to sources like I did for you.  

 

Looks like I've offended you.  In which case I apologise.

My motivation is to share my enthusiasm for this topic, to share some of the knowledge I've picked up along the way, and help people.  The fact that my advice isn't the same as everyone else on here is actually deliberate - it's useful to have multiple opinions or viewpoints when discussing a topic and I don't see any value in posting endless "me too" posts like others do here.  There have been studies showing that if you ask enough lay-people about a topic then you get a better answer than asking an expert, and it comes from the range of differing inputs.

In terms of my levels of knowledge, one of the topics you mention above is what I do professionally, which I've been doing for over 20 years.

One thing we should all try to keep in mind is that this is the internet and there are always people posting things that are misleading or incorrect.  I'll be the first to admit I sometimes unintentionally make a mistake, but we all know that there are others with vested interests, trolls, and those who enjoy flat-out lying.  I suspect this forum would be just as bad as others if we fact-checked every post.  

I believe that people thinking for themselves when provided with differing viewpoints is better than anyone blindly following someone else's advice.

[sam]

 Is competancy, or profession, in question?   Have your posts been disparaged in any way?

 Asking what benefits we gain from you reiterating what you've read on the internet Is fairly benign, no?   

Civility friend.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kye]

@sam PM sent to take this topic offline.  

In future it would be better if someone has a problem with something I've said to reply to that thing, instead of just rolling it all up into negative remarks about me personally.

Thanks.

[Don Kotlos]

Ok back to the subject here is a review from Chris and Jordan for DPReview! DPReview is lucky to have them. Congrats to @Jordan Drake

 

[sam]

To any who may frown on these posts.  Let me ask you.  Do you want another Ebrahim?  

He went on for years giving all sorts of advice about image quality, gear, workflow, etc...When people would ask for recommendations, there he was, speaking the lingo, talking like an old pro.  As it turned out, he was a kid with  a 50d literally out in the middle of the Egyptian desert. 

 As for Kye, I asked his intent, as evidenced by the previous posts, and he equated that to a personal attack.

 Maybe I should of responded like Matthew Allard of newsshooter responded to a commenter in the Ebu post, when they told him he should call out Allen Roberts about the results of his recent test.  "Its like a sports car owner telling a racecar driver what their doing wrong"   and Matt owns an F35 and Amirra.  If Kye was part of this analogy, he'd be a well versed spectator in the stands.  Would you take any heed of his advice on what engine to use or when to change tires?

Which brings me to another topic I rail against that keeps getting hammered on, especially by the owners of the gh5.  All cameras are "good enough." That may be, depending on a number of factors, including but not limited to screen size and quality, your own preferences, and distribution medium......but do you see Mathew Allard, Matt Workman, Phillip bloom, Robert Allen, or the vast majority of production giving up industry standard cinema and eng cams? And I cant say they wouldn't like to, because no one wants to carry around heavy tools or spend tens of thousands and more on tools, when they could use it for living life instead.

Is it safe to say most participants of eoshd have not seen a single uhd bluray? How about the simple task of downloading the exr' s from Geoff Boyles evaluations as a point of reference?

how can they then even begin to make a statement of any sort in reference to "quality" of image when comparing one camera to another?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jonpais]

I came across the YouTube channel of Canadian vlogger and model Piper Blush last night and was pretty astounded by the rendition of brilliant primary colors and accurate skin tones in her videos, as well as by how clean they look (not referring to the content here- hehe). Her work, best viewed with the volume turned off, gives ample opportunity to check out skin tones; and strictly out of a sense of scientific duty, I pored over a number of her uploads, only to find that they are all consistently well-exposed ?. I wrote to ask what she shoots with, and it turns out to be an a6500. Anyhow, some of the loveliest colors I’ve seen yet by any YouTuber.

NSFW

https://youtu.be/bzEGjvZSw6A

 

[Dave Maze]

26 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I came across the YouTube channel of Canadian vlogger and model Piper Blush last night and was pretty astounded by the rendition of brilliant primary colors and accurate skin tones in her videos, as well as by how clean they look (not referring to the content here- hehe). Her work, best viewed with the volume turned off, gives ample opportunity to check out skin tones; and strictly out of a sense of scientific duty, I pored over a number of her uploads, only to find that they are all consistently well-exposed ?. I wrote to ask what she shoots with, and it turns out to be an a6500. Anyhow, some of the loveliest colors I’ve seen yet by any YouTuber.

NSFW

https://youtu.be/bzEGjvZSw6A

 

Lol. Ive seen her before. I need to look away :P

[Aussie Ash]

3 hours ago, jonpais said:

I came across the YouTube channel of Canadian vlogger and model Piper Blush last night and was pretty astounded by the rendition of brilliant primary colors and accurate skin tones in her videos, as well as by how clean they look (not referring to the content here- hehe). Her work, best viewed with the volume turned off, gives ample opportunity to check out skin tones; and strictly out of a sense of scientific duty, I pored over a number of her uploads, only to find that they are all consistently well-exposed ?. I wrote to ask what she shoots with, and it turns out to be an a6500. Anyhow, some of the loveliest colors I’ve seen yet by any YouTuber.

NSFW

https://youtu.be/bzEGjvZSw6A

 

The bearded Kiwi may find this one interesting for the soundtrack