How Important is 10-Bit Really?

[markr041]

8 hours ago, sam said:

quite a few lower end cameras from sony have hlg including camcorders and the fs5. 

In what sense is the FS5 "lower end"? Relative to ARRI cameras?

The FS7 also shots HLG, speaking of the lower end... 

[Matthew Hartman]

3 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

@Matthew Hartman I wish I still had my nx1 ?

ACES & RCM work with other camera profiles too. There is a generic rec709 conversion option but it doesnt work as well as I hoped. ACES has profiles for BMDfilm,alexa log c, all the slog’s and clog as well and its all done in 32bit precision. I still grade in lumetri I just use resolve ACES too color correct in a big color space without worrying about color channel clipping

I might be persuaded to sell my NX1, (with nx-ks hack installed) 5 batteries, 5 native nx lens', 2 Rokinons and 3 vintage glass with adapters, plus my Crane V1 and remote/and handle bars for the right offer.  

[jonpais]

I’ll have to look into all this ACES stuff myself. I’ve been thinking of switching over to Resolve anyhow, since FCP doesn’t have the proper Luma Waveform for working in HDR HLG. I don’t see myself giving up LUTs anytime soon though - I’d never come close to getting the results I’m seeing with HLG rec.709 without Paul Leeming’s LUT. 

But key to all this color management stuff and and even the 10-bit discussion is working with a good calibrated reference monitor, no? While color correcting a 30-second test clip of my model on my MacBook Pro the other day (my iMac is still at the shop), the grey wall behind her looked cyan, and no matter how far down I dragged the highlight slider (in FCP), the highlights in her face looked indistinct. I was basically fumbling around in the dark. This was with rec.709 conversion, too. But it looked fine when viewed on an OLED. I’d like to pick up a good reference monitor like @Matthew Hartman‘s, but I don’t want to drop thousands, only to see a reasonably priced HDR monitor appear 1-1/2 years down the road.

[kidzrevil]

@jonpais you can use a spyder display calibrator. It’s not as accurate as an ISF professionally calibrated monitor but its damn near close. It makes an icc profile of your monitor and the color temperature of your room lighting. Its 99% accurate. If your current monitor is HDR capable you should be fine.

[kidzrevil]

Im gonna give LUTs a chance again but only use em with tetrahedral interpolation 

[sam]

15 hours ago, markr041 said:

In what sense is the FS5 "lower end"? Relative to ARRI cameras?

The FS7 also shots HLG, speaking of the lower end... 

 so, in cinema camera land where would you place it?  real film shooting cameras in various sizes, Alexa 65, Lf, Sxt, Amirra, Mini, Classic, F65, Venice, F35, F55, C700, C500, Varicam, Varicam lt, Phantom V, Miro, Flex4k, Panavision dxl, Genesis, Monstro, Weapon8ks35, Helium8ks35, Monochrome8k, Dragon6k, Astrodesign8k.....

In relatively crazy expensive broadcast camera land where would you place it ?  Grass valley, Ikegami, Hitachi, Sharp, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Jvc.....

the fs5 is a consumer/prosumer cam  with a price around that of a single budget cinema prime in the flavor of your choice.  so yes, in the context of film making, it's a lower end camera, but that doesn't stop anyone from creating a cultural masterpiece with it.   

I only wish I was the genious who rebranded "video camera" to " cinema camera" .  selling a "dream" instead of just a black box that now doesnt even come with a lens.

[Mark Romero 2]

On 3/7/2018 at 6:58 AM, kidzrevil said:

I recently changed my workflow from using luts to a 32bit floating point color space like ACES and davinci resolve color management and the difference in image quality is night and day from using those hard coded luts that do weird things to an 8 bit image.

When you say you changed your workflow, do you literally mean just go into preferences in Resolve and change, change color science to ACES, go to lookup tables, then pick the corresponding IDT and ODT (rec.709 for broadcast, sRGB for web)?

Is there a difference between ACES and Resolve Color Management?

I see there is an IDT for Slog but does one need a different IDT if using one of the Sony Cine gammas?

[markr041]

31 minutes ago, sam said:

 so, in cinema camera land where would you place it?  real film shooting cameras in various sizes, Alexa 65, Lf, Sxt, Amirra, Mini, Classic, F65, Venice, F35, F55, C700, C500, Varicam, Varicam lt, Phantom V, Miro, Flex4k, Panavision dxl, Genesis, Monstro, Weapon8ks35, Helium8ks35, Monochrome8k, Dragon6k, Astrodesign8k.....

In relatively crazy expensive broadcast camera land where would you place it ?  Grass valley, Ikegami, Hitachi, Sharp, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Jvc.....

the fs5 is a consumer/prosumer cam  with a price around that of a single budget cinema prime in the flavor of your choice.  so yes, in the context of film making, it's a lower end camera, but that doesn't stop anyone from creating a cultural masterpiece with it.   

I only wish I was the genious who rebranded "video camera" to " cinema camera" .  selling a "dream" instead of just a black box that now doesnt even come with a lens.

Exactly. But most of the people here are discussing and shooting with mirrorless cameras or DSLRs. The FS5 is not "lower end" in that category, it is in a whole different category - not cinema or broadcast but not consumer either.

[Matthew Hartman]

10 minutes ago, markr041 said:

Exactly. But most of the people here are discussing and shooting with mirrorless cameras or DSLRs. The FS5 is not "lower end" in that category, it is in a whole different category - not cinema or broadcast but not consumer either.

The way I understand the FS5 is it's on the lower spec'd end of Sony's cinema line? Mainly to accommodate the smaller form factor? I agree, it's in an odd niche. 

[markr041]

1 hour ago, Matthew Hartman said:

The way I understand the FS5 is it's on the lower spec'd end of Sony's cinema line? Mainly to accommodate the smaller form factor? I agree, it's in an odd niche. 

Sure. We are getting off topic here, but when you connect up the FS5 to an external recorder (eg, the Atomos Inferno) you get some major specs: 12bit RAW for DCI 4K at 30P, or ProRes HQ 10bit at DCI 4K 60P or even 120P, all from 12bit RAW. You are out of 8bit 420 land (however important or unimportant that may be). These specs are just as good as the bigger, more expensive FS7, but less good than the upper end if you think that 16bit RAW importantly beats 12bit RAW! And there is that electronic, continuously variable automatic ND filter..

[sam]

 I'm with ya. but.......Markr041, those specs all describe "data" in terms of amount, precision, and the container in which this "data" is delivered.  

it defines absolutely nothing about what an imaging system is capable of seeing in the first place.  or the characteristic attributes imparted by said system, whether by design or otherwise.