Kinefinity TERRA 4K Selling at ProAV

[JordanWright]

https://www.proav.co.uk/nsearch/?q=kinefinity+terra+4k+cam

From a reputable UK seller! Looks like they have a lot of different configs

[Matthew Hartman]

Man, so affordable in it's class. 

[BTM_Pix]

I think they're showing it at the BVE show this week.

I'm in London on Thursday so might pop in to have a look.

That is if all public transport hasn't been cancelled and a state of emergency declared in a pant wetting reaction to the suggestion of snow.

[Matthew Hartman]

1 minute ago, BTM_Pix said:

That is if all public transport hasn't been cancelled and a state of emergency declared in a pant wetting reaction to the suggestion of snow.

Ha! And here I thought only Seattle had this affliction. ?

[BTM_Pix]

So, I managed to brave the elements and get to the BVE show and have a look at it.

First impression is that it was much smaller than I was expecting it to be. Took a snap of it next to a 5D MKIV for comparison and weight wise it was similar too.

The interchangeable mount is interesting and the one pictured is the locking EF with in built ND and they also have a speedboosted EF and PL.

The crop factor with the speedboosted mount is 1.3 but 1.8 without. That surprised me as I just assumed it was 1.5 to be honest.

There is an E Mount adapter too (which wasn't on show) and that option has become more interesting now with the Sigma E Mount ARTs and Fuji doing their cine ones in E Mount too.

The dual iso is 800 and 3200 and they told me it's pretty clean at 12800 as a consequence but the proof of that etc...

The rear module gives you all the additional SDI connectivity, V Mount battery capability, external power tap, XLRs etc but it the camera is still operable without it if you want to keep the weight/form factor/price down.

It has full size HDMI on the main unit so you can connect whatever EVF/Monitor you want.

If you go for the grip then it also holds a battery as per the RED handgrip its obviously modelled on but unlike the RED it uses regular Sony NP batteries rather than an expensive proprietary type. The grip does feel like a cheap version of the RED one (cos it is!!!) but its great as a way to keep the cost down power wise as you save the cost of the rear module and the V locks. Power time via the grip is about 30 mins apparently.

Talking of non-proprietary, it also uses regular SSD media and does internal ProRes. However, the RAW format IS their own format (but can be transcoded with their own tools) but I'm not sure if its a supported format within Resolve? 

Talking of BM, I was told that Kinefinity are pitching the camera as a direct competitor to the Ursa Mini Pro though its more RED form factor to me.

With regard to support, the plan seems to be swap out units at least during the initial period and I think that's fair enough. Its worth bearing in mind that for those of us who were outside of the US when being early adopters of the RED ONE it is no different.

First impression is that if you are in the EVA-1/C200/URSA Mini Pro then its certianly worth looking at Kinefinity if you have a distributor in your country. People are very wary of the support aspect but to be honest, the distributors who take it on are WELL aware of that and so, conversely, you might well end up getting BETTER service as they seek to overcome that objection.

Bottom line is that if this camera had a different name on it then there would be a LOT more buzz about it.

Full details of packages here 

https://www.proav.co.uk/cine/cameras/kinefinity

[webrunner5]

One problem I see, I may be wrong, is this camera has a 4k sensor, no more, no less. But you really can't get a true 4k output using a 4k sensor. So say for Netflix, etc, it might not meet the true standard as a 4k video camera.

[BTM_Pix]

Netflix requirements says 4096 wide so whilst its not on their approved list of cameras, its 4096x2800 sensor is within their spec.

 

[Mattias Burling]

And thats for creating content for Netflix in 4K. To aired on netflix is another deal.
A great feature Ive watched more than once on netflix was shot on in good old HD with a 5Dmkii, standard video. And it looks fantastic.

[BTM_Pix]

Definitely a case of crossing that bridge when you come to it with regards to what to use when commissioned for a Netflix Original production.

The only Netflix spec that I have to concern myself with meeting is the £7.99 a month payment 

[webrunner5]

This a is all true, but..if you want to keep this camera Long Term, you might be screwed. More and more places are going to require true 4k. That is probably why the Ursa mini Pro is 4.6k, why Kinefinity makes a 5k, 6k model. Heck even the GH5, EVA1 is larger than Just 4k. And probably for a damn good reason.

I am not going to buy a Kinefinity, you guys know my stance on new company's. But I just don't want people to blindly go into this either. There are real consequences down the road I see with this particular model maybe. It's your money, not mine.

[BTM_Pix]

2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

This a is all true, but..if you want to keep this camera Long Term, you might be screwed. More and more places are going to require true 4k. That is probably why the Ursa mini Pro is 4.6k, why Kinefinity makes a 5k, 6k model. Heck even the GH5 is larger than Just 4k. And probably for a damn good reason.

I am not going to buy a Kinefinity, you guys know my stance on new company's. But I just don't want people to blindly go into this either. There are real consequences down the road I see with this particular model maybe. It's your money, not mine.

I think you doth protest too much about this camera. You want one really don't you

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

This a is all true, but..if you want to keep this camera Long Term, you might be screwed. More and more places are going to require true 4k. That is probably why the Ursa mini Pro is 4.6k, why Kinefinity makes a 5k, 6k model. Heck even the GH5, EVA1 is larger than Just 4k. And probably for a damn good reason.

Basically only Netflix mandates 4K, and even then ONLY for their commissioned productions (which is but a teeny tiny part of their entire library).

The odds of multiple major buyers mandating high than 4K resolution in the near future? Next to nil!

Thus is FUD and scaremongering to suggest otherwise.

But if a person is really feeling that paranoid, then just get the Kinefinity 6K instead. 

[Mattias Burling]

Yeah I don't see 4K being mandatory for quite some time.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Also, Netflix allows content to be shot on Varicam, which is "just 4k." Never have I read that they or any other streaming service require oversampling or give a shit about Nyquist.

Camera looks dope. A poor man's Red, but with Panasonic-like low light performance and compatible with my existing accessories. Waiting to see a little more footage, but...this is on my radar.

[johnnyd]

Also, if you happen to land a job to shoot something for netflix, there is a chance they have a budget for you to get a camera from a rental place if you ask nicely

[Matthew Hartman]

2 hours ago, johnnyd said:

Also, if you happen to land a job to shoot something for netflix, there is a chance they have a budget for you to get a camera from a rental place if you ask nicely

It would be like any other budgeted production. They just won't approve any camera not on their spec requirements list without considerable negotiation. They want complete ownership of the highest native format they can get because of future proofing, and mostly for their in-house grading department. It's an aquisitional thing. That project is then getting distributed in a streamable format. 

I'm sure if Netfilx hired a world renouned DoP who absolutely insisted shooting on a DSLR or action cam or smartphone they're not going to be foolishly dismissive. 

I also suspect their spec requirements list is a bit outdated and in need of revision. To me the current list is what I would expect a professional colorist would desire as optimal footage to push around in grade. There is no logical reason why Kinefinity footage wouldn't be able to meet this request. Transcoding it's proprietory RAW footage is really not that big of a deal in the scheme of things. 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

There's also a difference between content commissioned by Netflix and content acquired by Netflix. Gonna go ahead and say all of us fall into the latter category, in which case they'll distribute anything they think people will watch.

For me, the only standards I need to adhere to are my own standards for quality (easily met by ProRes, let alone KineRAW), broadcast (again, easily met by ProRes), and whatever my clients specifically request (at most, 4K 10-bit). Between the codecs, low light, and slow motion, the Kine ticks pretty much all my boxes.

[johnnyd]

5 hours ago, Matthew Hartman said:

It would be like any other budgeted production. They just won't approve any camera not on their spec requirements list without considerable negotiation. They want complete ownership of the highest native format they can get because of future proofing, and mostly for their in-house grading department. It's an aquisitional thing. That project is then getting distributed in a streamable format. 

I'm sure if Netfilx hired a world renouned DoP who absolutely insisted shooting on a DSLR or action cam or smartphone they're not going to be foolishly dismissive. 

I also suspect their spec requirements list is a bit outdated and in need of revision. To me the current list is what I would expect a professional colorist would desire as optimal footage to push around in grade. There is no logical reason why Kinefinity footage wouldn't be able to meet this request. Transcoding it's proprietory RAW footage is really not that big of a deal in the scheme of things. 

Yes, I'm familiar with their camera requirements, just joking around

I do think that it's great to see Kinefinity getting more resellers in Europe, but the biggest problem is that they're not "established" enough for more serious productions just yet and that is the reason why Netflix or anyone else could refuse to use it in a production. Maybe that'll change when their cameras get more exposure though. From what I've seen they seem like cool cameras and pretty cheap for what you get, specs-wise anyways. Philip Bloom seems to be testing out the Terra 4k so maybe he's doing some in-depth look at it at some point.

[Don Kotlos]

There is no "must be established" requirement from Netflix: 

Camera Requirements

4K Resolution:
•Camera must have a true 4K sensor (equal to or greater than 4096 photosites wide).


Recording Format:
• Minimum of 16-bit Linear or 10-bit Log processing

• Bitrate of at least 240 Mbps (at 23.98/24 fps) recording

• Recording format must be set to either:


RAW (uncompressed or lightly compressed sensor data)


Log color space (i.e. S-Log3, V-Log, CanonLog3, REDLogFilm, BMDLog, LogC)

• No looks or color corrections should be baked into the original camera files.

• Files must maintain all metadata (i.e. Tape Name, Timecode, Frame Rate, ISO, WB, etc.)


Aspect Ratio / Framing:
• Aspect ratios greater than 2.00:1 must be evaluated and discussed with Netflix for approval.

• Framing chart must be shot before principal photography begins, and processed through the dailies pipeline which will be shared with editorial, post-production, and VFX.


 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Well, Netflix productions will be renting something higher end than a Kine, EVA, UMP, etc regardless. This is more a competitor to those cameras--low end workhorses for owner-operators.