How Did They Get So Much Dynamic Range?

[Kisaha]

In the old days, we were using lights for indoor shots, and put ND filters in most critically positioned windows! And there was a crew, also. 

[Aussie Ash]

here is quite a cool "behind the scenes" Red Screen productions put together.

 

 

[Aussie Ash]

Here is some of the gear Red screen productions have been using lately

"Ruben Sarian" Ceo of Red screen productions

Canon EOS C200,Sigma 18-35 f1.8 etc

https://www.sharegrid.com/losangeles/people/ruben-redscreenproductions-com

 

[vaga]

Isn't it possible to go put a filter on the outside of the windows to make the light coming in through the windows darker and more equivalent to the indoor lighting?

You'll never see the filter because it's mounted outside.

[Matthew Hartman]

9 minutes ago, vaga said:

Isn't it possible to go put a filter on the outside of the windows to make the light coming in through the windows darker and more equivalent to the indoor lighting?

You'll never see the filter because it's mounted outside.

Yep. It's a well known trick. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/90629-REG/Rosco_102302104825_E_Colour_210_6_Neutral.html

 

5 hours ago, Kisaha said:

In the old days, we were using lights for indoor shots, and put ND filters in most critically positioned windows! And there was a crew, also. 

There's no old days about it. It's called real filmmaking. ?

[Kisaha]

@Matthew Hartman haha! no it's not, it's all about 20 stops of dynamic range, 9 axis IBIS and millions of ISO!

By the way, a simple ND filter on a window, it costs a few dozen dollars (re-usable of course), and saves you a few thousands dollars of lighting equipment. When I was really young, and starting in the business I covered hundreds of windows with ND filters (and black curtains)!

Of,course I do not expect @Mark Romero 2 to spend 20 hours to cover everything with ND filter, and if you have 20 and 30 minutes, don't worry about the dynamic range, just go there with your gimbal and shoot everything you can! But the difference sometimes, is not the cameras or the equipment, nor the budget, but time.

If you can't take the time (or talk your customers to give you the time), then maybe you can't do it. Certainly not in 30 minutes. But do not worry, if they do not give you the time, then they do not care!

[Aussie Ash]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

But do not worry, if they do not give you the time, then they do not care!

What is the real estate guys commission on selling a 2 million dollar home !!

[Matthew Hartman]

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@Matthew Hartman haha! no it's not, it's all about 20 stops of dynamic range, 9 axis IBIS and millions of ISO!

By the way, a simple ND filter on a window, it costs a few dozen dollars (re-usable of course), and saves you a few thousands dollars of lighting equipment. When I was really young, and starting in the business I covered hundreds of windows with ND filters (and black curtains)!

Of,course I do not expect @Mark Romero 2 to spend 20 hours to cover everything with ND filter, and if you have 20 and 30 minutes, don't worry about the dynamic range, just go there with your gimbal and shoot everything you can! But the difference sometimes, is not the cameras or the equipment, nor the budget, but time.

If you can't take the time (or talk your customers to give you the time), then maybe you can't do it. Certainly not in 30 minutes. But do not worry, if they do not give you the time, then they do not care!

I can't speculate on real estate, but I will always air on the side of properly setting up a shot in narrative work, even as a one man band. Take the time and effort. When you're sitting in the editor's chair you won't be kicking yourself constantly and this is where coverage and proper set up matters greatly.

Of course a lot of clients are laymen and they have the misconception that filming is a pointed camera and some lights, they don't have any spacial awareness of what makes up a good shot/scene, and why would they? All they ever see is the finished product.

I'm constantly pushing back on those misconceptions. It comes down to approach. You have to be willing to educate people about the craft and justify your position in a respectful/tactful way. It's not an easy thing, almost everyone is going to come at it skeptically, because time is money, but you have to have a good pitch and explain value, or what they're getting for their buck. You have to read the language of each client.

There will always be some adversarial clients that are not worth that battle. If they insist on shit, just give them the shit they asked for. Yeah, your standards are challenged, but money is one shade of green at the end of the day.

[Kisaha]

@Matthew Hartman So true! "Education" is a big part of our job, especially if you care for a lasting relationship with a customer.

That goes with directors as well, being firstly, and mostly, a sound man, puts me in the place to have to constantly inform them about sound, and try to educate them on the fly, so to make my life easier, my job worthier, and save them some money in the process!

[mkabi]

2 hours ago, Matthew Hartman said:

Of course a lot of clients are laymen and they have the misconception that filming is a pointed camera and some lights, they don't have any spacial awareness of what makes up a good shot/scene, and why would they? All they ever see is the finished product.

I'm constantly pushing back on those misconceptions. It comes down to approach. You have to be willing to educate people about the craft and justify your position in a respectful/tactful way. It's not an easy thing, almost everyone is going to come at it skeptically, because time is money, but you have to have a good pitch and explain value, or what they're getting for their buck. You have to read the language of each client.

There will always be some adversarial clients that are not worth that battle. If they insist on shit, just give them the shit they asked for. Yeah, your standards are challenged, but money is one shade of green at the end of the day.

At the end of the day, its about how you sell yourself (and that has every bit to do with how much you value yourself too).

If I was in either the Real Estate biz or even the wedding biz, I would create a tiered pricing approach - along with a demo reel to help the client see what the difference is between what you offer in terms of service (for each price point). 

For example for real estate:

Bronze package: 2 hour shoot - 1 day editing - $500 - Demo reel showing what is included in this price range.

Silver package: 4 hour shoot - 1-3 day - $1200 - Demo reel showing what is included in this price range (if the customer is not able to see that much of a difference here, then explain).

Gold/Platinum package: 8+ hour shoot - Multi-day editing - $3000 - Demo reel showing what is included in this price range.

This is not newbie (I know it all) pricing.... this is.... I've been here for a while, you obviously heard of me and/or seen my work pricing.

Obviously, you try to do your best on every single package - don't skimp, because you want to retain a customer, you want repeat customers. At the same time, figure out what you are capable of doing within the set parameters, don't apply nd filters on the window if you only have 2 hours. Nonetheless, you go the extra mile for the Gold/Platinum package - use your own creative facilities for this.... I can't teach you vision and/or creativeness... that's all you. But here is a tip, people have a hard time envisioning themselves in a space and how to fill a space, this is why they have staging (they put rental furniture) to fill a space. Go the extra mile by... I don't know... hire actors (they are a dime a dozen willing to work for cheap - try mandy.com... audition first, Rolodex the good ones for repeat performances, just don't do the same crap in every video), here is an example: get a couple that are engaged in a conversation with a mug of coffee - laughing it up. You don't have to have a real dialogue going on, mute them out and have your choice of music overlayed. Have children running around, or a teen browsing on the ipad nestled on the couch... This is how you sell yourself... BTW, for the gold/platinum package only (actually the best videos in this category), stamp your name and/or company logo on it. Because, if its a good video, people will associate the video with the person creating it not the real estate agent selling the home, thereafter - depending on the demand - you adjust the price.

Editted to add: If you are new to this.... I would throw in some stuff for free the first few times.... its like how drug dealers throw it in till you are hooked on it approach  

 

[Matthew Hartman]

@Kisaha @mkabi

Great thoughts and expression guys. I'm impressed.

Mkabi, love the tiered packages. I think something like that is highly marketable. 

[BTM_Pix]

3 hours ago, Matthew Hartman said:

Money is one shade of green at the end of the day.

Unless its 10 bit money of course

[Mark Romero 2]

49 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Unless its 10 bit money of course

And Sony money sometimes has a magenta tint to it, sometimes yellow...

[Matthew Hartman]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Unless its 10 bit money of course

Priceless.

36 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

And Sony money sometimes has a magenta tint to it, sometimes yellow...

Can't money be fixed in post?

[hmcindie]

Regarding the two first videos, one tell tale difference is that the second video (which is more amateur) lets the highlights be at 100. The first video has all the levels of the highlights brought down way under 100 with a custom curve. Use S-LOG 2, it will help you keep those higlights with the a6500.

Same with the shadows. First video avoids clear 0 blacks. Second video doesn't. Get those gamma curves with a more pleasing look, it also applies when grading stills.

 

 

[gethin]

real estate video shooting is my day job.  They have got crap loads of direct sunlight coming into that room. No lights needed!  I did a stills shoot the other day for a property the total opposite of this: no windows other than the one the view was through, no direct sun coming into the room from anywhere.  Total nightmare to shoot, ended up bouncing some light in with big reflectors. No way on earth a video camera of any flavour could handle it.  To combat the sun you'd need a huge light. Even in stills a big room will swallow a 300W strobe. You'd need HMIs, but totally impractical for a real estate shoot.  

When faced with videoing places like this it's really OK to say to the client "there's no way to get the view and interior". You can shoot the view with something in the foreground to get a sense that it is a view from the house. This can work well with longer lenses on a track or gimbal.  you can set the camera to auto and move from the dark room to the view.  Or you can shoot a raw timelapse if the dyanamic range is within the range of your gear.   

one ritzy place I shot I set up 2.4x1.2 metre poly silver boards, but even with an assistant and sandbags they kept blowing over lol.  I've never bothered again.  Would be quicker to go back at dawn or dusk and get the light streaming into the room.   Sometimes you can just chuck a silver reflector on the floor if there is sunlight coming into the room, that will bounce a fair amount of light back up, off a white ceiling.   

 

 

[Mark Romero 2]

3 hours ago, hmcindie said:

Regarding the two first videos, one tell tale difference is that the second video (which is more amateur) lets the highlights be at 100. The first video has all the levels of the highlights brought down way under 100 with a custom curve. Use S-LOG 2, it will help you keep those higlights with the a6500.

Same with the shadows. First video avoids clear 0 blacks. Second video doesn't. Get those gamma curves with a more pleasing look, it also applies when grading stills.

Thanks for the input. Yeah, I am sure that I was often blowing my highlights. When you say the first video they were way down under 100 IRE, about how far down do you think their highlights were? I have heard for cine 1 keep them at 95 (or below) even though Cine 1 is supposed to go to 109 IRE.
 

2 hours ago, gethin said:

real estate video shooting is my day job.  They have got crap loads of direct sunlight coming into that room. No lights needed!  I did a stills shoot the other day for a property the total opposite of this: no windows other than the one the view was through, no direct sun coming into the room from anywhere.  Total nightmare to shoot, ended up bouncing some light in with big reflectors. No way on earth a video camera of any flavour could handle it.  To combat the sun you'd need a huge light. Even in stills a big room will swallow a 300W strobe. You'd need HMIs, but totally impractical for a real estate shoot.  

When faced with videoing places like this it's really OK to say to the client "there's no way to get the view and interior". You can shoot the view with something in the foreground to get a sense that it is a view from the house. This can work well with longer lenses on a track or gimbal.  you can set the camera to auto and move from the dark room to the view.  Or you can shoot a raw timelapse if the dyanamic range is within the range of your gear.   

one ritzy place I shot I set up 2.4x1.2 metre poly silver boards, but even with an assistant and sandbags they kept blowing over lol.  I've never bothered again.  Would be quicker to go back at dawn or dusk and get the light streaming into the room.   Sometimes you can just chuck a silver reflector on the floor if there is sunlight coming into the room, that will bounce a fair amount of light back up, off a white ceiling.  

Thanks for chiming in. I will have to try the silver reflector on the floor idea.

When it is really bright outside, I can see using something in the foreground as a silhouette; maybe the tops of some chairs or some wine glasses on a dining room table...???

Yeah, setting up ply silver boards seems like a nightmare... heck, just putting them into my car seems like a nightmare (and I have a BIG car).

On 3/7/2018 at 10:56 AM, Aussie Ash said:

What is the real estate guys commission on selling a 2 million dollar home !!

It's a lot!

But it is all about VALUE for the agents. I see some agents selling $5 Million or more homes using photos they took on their iphones. They can't be bothered to spend $100 on cheap run-and-gun HDR photos, let alone $200 for well-light photos.

[Kisaha]

Here, its not even an industry. I know a lot of working professionals (both photo and video), and no one is doing this job. The real estate agents do it on their phones, or have small compacts, and they are fine, you are very lucky having the ability to get something out of it!

HMIs would be great, but if you cover the windows with heavy ND filters, even an Aputure LS can be enough to balance things out a bit.