Cheap bokeh setup?

[kye]

I shoot handheld run-and-gun home videos / personal projects and my XC10 does this very well, but the one thing it can't do is BOKEH!

...and I can't get it out of my head!!!

I am wondering if there's a cheap setup that can get bokeh, can run-and-gun for home videos with decent results, and produces a half-decent image after dark.  The smaller the better, so no old cine cameras.

I've tried my Canon 700D with 50mm f1.8, but 80mm equivalent is way too long, the lack of IS makes everything shaky, and the Canon IQ is lacklustre.

Therefore the criteria is:
- BOKEH!! (f2.8 equivalent or faster)
- nice image (better than my 700D 1080p ~56mbps codec)
- not too shaky image while hand-held (I record while walking - image stabilisation probably required?)
- can either autofocus or has a lens with ok manual focus ring (ie, not a quarter-turn for the whole focal range)
- wide enough to be useful indoors (shorter than 50mm equivalent - a short zoom would be useful)
- as I live in Australia - it cannot have overheating problems (I've had my iphone overheat while recording video - our weather is no joke!)

I can either get a sub-$600 lens for my Canon 700D:
- the Sigma 18-35 f1.8 looks great, but lacks IS - will it be wide enough to hand-hold?  80mm handheld was impossible!
- Canon EF 24mm f2.8 IS USM - not wide enough for indoors?

Or I can sell the 700D and lenses, then I'd have ~$1000 for a camera/lens combo.  What might that be?

I'm ok with ML or firmware hacks as long as they're reliable, purchasing second-hand is assumed.

Is this possible?  Or has wide-angle shallow depth-of-field just not come down in price enough yet?

[sam]

use this with your xc10. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/801131345-USE/redrock_micro_3_006_0001_m3_cinema_lens_adapter.html

 

here's a video showing how it looks with the xc10.  

you obviously don't have to rig it up big like this example.  I know in your other posts switching systems wasn't in the budget, so this might work.

[sam]

if that's too big, you could try vid-atlantic filters and a .50x wide angle adapter to get wide.  

[BTM_Pix]

I remember them doing that video and was just about to post it!

Its obviously a bit unwieldy but it definitely does have an interesting look and is hands down the cheapest way to where you are trying to get to.

This video uses the same approach but doesn't detail which adapter he's using.

 

[cantsin]

I'd look into the new Canon EOS-M50 in combination with the 22mm/f2 lens. Its 4k mode looks good, and should intercut well with material of your XC10. The camera is rather affordable, too.

[webrunner5]

7 hours ago, sam said:

use this with your xc10. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/801131345-USE/redrock_micro_3_006_0001_m3_cinema_lens_adapter.html

 

here's a video showing how it looks with the xc10.  

 

you obviously don't have to rig it up big like this example.  I know in your other posts switching systems wasn't in the budget, so this might work.

" Micro have a new streamlined 35mm lens adapter for achieving that shallow DOF Cinema look with your existing video camera. The M3 is available in three basic configurations – Cinema Lens Adapter, Indie Bundle, and Complete Package. Expect to pay a special introductory price of $1320 normally $1850 for the M3."

Those things were stupid expensive back in the day! That one is the deal of a lifetime! I was thinking of buying one years ago.

[kye]

Wow.. that's not what I was expecting!  That thing is HUGE!!  There is no way I'll be able to get that into carnivals, speech nights at the kids school, or use it at parties and picnics!  People will think I'm about to zap them with my ray-gun!  Imagine taking that thing through border security.. :O

The M50 / 22mm f2 combo is interesting - I was thinking I'd get better value by going for better but older second-hand options but it's something to keep in mind, the form factor is great though.

I was expecting recommendations like:
- Sony a3000 / a5000 and a manual lens
- 100D with ML and a wide manual lens
- early model RX100 (?)
- Ricoh GR (?)
- or that it's much easier to hand-hold an 18mm than a 50mm so don't worry about IS and to buy the Sigma 18-35 f1.8 and run ML on my 700D with a higher quality mode for the 1080 (which actually sounds like a potential option, assuming I can get it to write a stream higher than the 56Mbps file it gave me when I tried it on 3x quality)

...or something even more esoteric like an old DSLR film-makers kit from an obsolete lens system but a body with clean HDMI output and an Atomos Ninja Star.

I recorded a test video with the 700D and 50mm 1.8 and it was almost passable in terms of IQ (softness and low-light performance at f1.8), but just wasn't a practical focal length.  If only Canon had a "Plenty Twenty" 20mm f1.8 lens for $200 and a HQ video mode that did 100Mbps!!  (Yeah, I know, it's Canon we're talking about....)

I probably just want an XC20.

[Yurolov]

Wait for next iteration of canon or get a a7iii or xh1 or gh5 as none of the cameras you listed meet your requirements. 

[IronFilm]

Sounds like the Panasonic G80/G85 is the camera for you, and you could pair it with a couple of lenses such as say a Panasonic 25mm f1.7 & Panasonic 42.5mm f/1.7 

[webrunner5]

3 hours ago, kye said:

Wow.. that's not what I was expecting!  That thing is HUGE!!  There is no way I'll be able to get that into carnivals, speech nights at the kids school, or use it at parties and picnics!  People will think I'm about to zap them with my ray-gun!  Imagine taking that thing through border security.. :O

I probably just want an XC20.

sam finds you a cheap ass solution and you want a XC20, Oh My God!! You have been talking to Mercer haven't you? Sad, so sad.

[Yurolov]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Sounds like the Panasonic G80/G85 is the camera for you, and you could pair it with a couple of lenses such as say a Panasonic 25mm f1.7 & Panasonic 42.5mm f/1.7 

On second thought I agree with this. But I'd be more inclined to wait for the canons because of color science. 

[webrunner5]

10 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

On second thought I agree with this. But I'd be more inclined to wait for the canons because of color science. 

You might be blind with old age by then LoL. I agree they Should be coming out with something better than the M50 we hope. Gulp.

[kye]

3 hours ago, Yurolov said:

Wait for next iteration of canon or get a a7iii or xh1 or gh5 as none of the cameras you listed meet your requirements. 

I wasn't sure if any of them did - the last time I bought a camera I was looking for high-bitrate 4k (and wound up with the XC10) and the time before that I didn't think about video and ended up with the 700D.

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Sounds like the Panasonic G80/G85 is the camera for you, and you could pair it with a couple of lenses such as say a Panasonic 25mm f1.7 & Panasonic 42.5mm f/1.7 

Looks capable, if a little more expensive than I was hoping.

12 hours ago, sam said:

if that's too big, you could try vid-atlantic filters and a .50x wide angle adapter to get wide.  

I missed this reply - sorry @sam !  I don't know that those filters are to my tastes, but the wide angle adapter is a thought I'd had before.  I think the Canon one was something like $250?

Do you know what these do to the speed of a lens?  ie, does it keep the same T-stop?  and what about the depth of field?

I bought a cheap one as a proof of concept and it was meant to be 0.45x but was actually about 0.75x and was so blurry it makes vintage lenses look like scientific instruments!

41 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

sam finds you a cheap ass solution and you want a XC20, Oh My God!! You have been talking to Mercer haven't you?

Lol, I want my cake and to eat it too.  I don't think Mercer is the only source of this type of sentiment

Is now the right time to tell you about what cars I'd like to buy? 

33 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

On second thought I agree with this. But I'd be more inclined to wait for the canons because of color science. 

Yeah, we could be waiting a while.

I'm surprised no-one has come up with an obvious suggestion - whenever I was reading about the Sigma 18-55 f1.8 lens everyone said it was the 'YouTubers favourite lens' but I can't find any info on what they pair it with that makes any sense..  The only combinations I've seen are the 18-35, metabones, and a6000 line cameras, but I can't imagine that the vast swathes of youtubers can afford such a thing, and whenever I see vloggers / travel filmmakers go to events I see most people have Canon/Sony FF/APSC, pocket cameras like RX100, or phones.  Maybe it's their favourite lens that they'd like to buy, but can't afford?  Or the few people that have it talk about it a lot?

I think I want to buy the 18-35 f1.8, but can't get past the lack of IS and mediocre bitrate.

[webrunner5]

4 minutes ago, kye said:

Lol, I want my cake and to eat it too.  I don't think Mercer is the only source of this type of sentiment

Yeah, we could be waiting a while.

 

 

Yeah, A XC20 with a removable lens would be pretty sweet!

[IronFilm]

50 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

On second thought I agree with this. But I'd be more inclined to wait for the canons because of color science. 

You're going to be waiting a very looooooooooooong time before Canon puts IBIS into a cheap camera!
 

19 minutes ago, kye said:

Looks capable, if a little more expensive than I was hoping.

The G80 is already very cheap, and the likes of a Panasonic 25mm f1.7 lens on sale is only US$99

Skip IBIS and you can get a secondhand Panasonic G7 for dirt dirt cheap! (skip 4K and you can get a G6 for a song!)

[Yurolov]

1 minute ago, IronFilm said:

You're going to be waiting a very looooooooooooong time before Canon puts IBIS into a cheap camera!
 

Lens IS and digital IS should be enough for his purposes, although maybe not - only he can judge.

[IronFilm]

22 minutes ago, kye said:

I'm surprised no-one has come up with an obvious suggestion - whenever I was reading about the Sigma 18-55 f1.8 lens everyone said it was the 'YouTubers favourite lens' but I can't find any info on what they pair it with that makes any sense..  The only combinations I've seen are the 18-35, metabones, and a6000 line cameras, but I can't imagine that the vast swathes of youtubers can afford such a thing

The Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 is a very affordable lens for what it is.  Of course there are YouTubers who can afford it. 

And you can use it on almost ANYTHING! (that isn't FF35)

I have my Sigma in NIkon F mount and I've used it on:

BMPCC, D5200, D90, G6, F3, GH1, etc... and those are just my cameras! Also taken it out and had it used on shoots on other cameras too such as a Panasonic EVA1 and many others. 

 

[kye]

8 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

You're going to be waiting a very looooooooooooong time before Canon puts IBIS into a cheap camera!
 

The G80 is already very cheap, and the likes of a Panasonic 25mm f1.7 lens on sale is only US$99

Skip IBIS and you can get a secondhand Panasonic G7 for dirt dirt cheap! (skip 4K and you can get a G6 for a song!)

I won't be waiting for a cheap IBIS Canon camera - that's for sure..

G80 + 25mm is interesting, I'll research it a bit more.

6 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

Lens IS and digital IS should be enough for his purposes, although maybe not - only he can judge.

Lens IS is probably fine (I handhold the XC10 at 280mm equivalent and can sometimes get motionless shots, other times they sway a little but it's fine).

Considering that I'm looking at the wide end, maybe I don't need IS at all?

2 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

The Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 is a very affordable lens for what it is.  Of course there are YouTubers who can afford it. 

And you can use it on almost ANYTHING! (that isn't FF35)

I have my Sigma in NIkon F mount and I've used it on:

BMPCC, D5200, D90, G6, F3, GH1, etc... and those are just my cameras! Also taken it out and had it used on shoots on other cameras too such as a Panasonic EVA1 and many others. 

 

Good to hear, and yes, I know it's a bargain for what it is.  Does this lens have the magic the internet says it does?

If so, I might just grab one of these and take a risk that it's wide enough not to need IS, and that the Canon with ML tweaking can give me a bump in IQ.  If not it'll still be great for stills when my brain remembers I also like taking photographs and in a few years can be an option for XC20 / 1DC / 1DX, or just sell it.

[BTM_Pix]

Just to put some meat on the bones (or Metabones in this case) of what you could expect from the Sigma 18-35 in terms of DOF on a Micro4/3 camera when coupled with a speedbooster, I've just gone outside and done this quick test for you with a Panasonic GX80.

This is it at its minimum focus distance wide open at 18mm, focused on the 0 of the scale. With the effect of the Speedbooster this is f1.2 at an equivalent FOV of 27mm.

 

 

This next one is it at its minimum focus distance wide open at 35mm, focused on the 0 of the scale. With the effect of the Speedbooster this is f1.2 at an equivalent FOV of 51mm.

And this last one is it at its roughly 2 feet wide open at 18mm, focused on the 0 of the scale. With the effect of the Speedbooster this is f1.2 at an equivalent FOV of 51mm.

In all instances, the ColorChecker is 6 inches behind the focus point (i.e. 0 on the Spyder Lenscal)

With a roughly 2 inch DOF at this aperture even on a Micro4/3, you might want to stop down a bit for run and gun

[cantsin]

I definitely advise against buying a non-Canon camera if you want to match footage with that of your XC10. Out-of-the-cam color rendering/science between brands is too visibly different. Matching different-vendor cameras in post is (a) a fiddly nightmare and (b) really not advisable with 8bit footage that doesn't give you enough room for color correction. Any attempt of matching another vendor's camera footage to the XC10's will result in degraded color resolution of the former.