Mind blowing Canon executive interview

[wolf33d]

With DPREVIEW:

- The EOS M50 offers 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS AF, but not at the same time. Is there a technical reason for this limitation?

"With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV. Given the position of the product, we wanted to achieve the optimal balance [of features] in a camera in that range."

We all knew Canon was crippling its products. Now is another proof. How can they dare sell you completely crippled shits for so much money? And people buy that.
What a ridiculous company. I am speechless. 

[Damphousse]

38 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

How can they dare sell you completely crippled shits for so much money? And people buy that.

I love the rants that answer themselves.  Saves me the effort of thinking.

[Trek of Joy]

34 minutes ago, Damphousse said:

I love the rants that answer themselves.  Saves me the effort of thinking.

That's the funniest thing I've read all day!

I never get the endless Canon bashing here, as if they're the only one that segments its lineup. Olympus doesn't put the focus stacking and pixel shift in all its bodies - or PDAF for that matter on anything below the EM1. Panasonic doesn't put 10-bit in anything other than the GH5(s) or a competent AF system in anything. Sony doesn't put anything beyond 8-bit 4:2:0 with the same 100mbps bitrate we've seen for years in anything below the FS5 and so on - yet people here are shitting themselves with excitement over the a7III and its non-existent weather sealing, partial plastic body, cheap spec LCD/EVF and so on because of oversampled 4k and what looks like a great AF system for a mere $2000. Fuji, geez, just check the XH1 thread. Where are the threads bitching about the G9 being crippled for not getting 10-bit? Or the a7r3 with its cheap ass single UHS-II card slot and no 10-bit or even a higher bitrate at $3200? The a9 is even more offensive at $4500. Everyone segments its cameras. Its a shitty reality we're forced to deal with. As to Canon, they're clearly waiting to release the mirrorless 5d4 without cannibalizing 5d4 sales.

Chris

[jonpais]

You are missing the whole point, @Trek of Joy. This has got nothing whatsoever to do with single card slots, weather sealing, 10-bit, plastic bodies, or AF. It is about a high level executive admitting to an ongoing company policy of withholding features to force consumers to spend thousands of extra dollars if they want commonplace features like an HDMI out with 4K, something even a lowly $600 Panasonic camera can do. The G9 was absolutely not crippled - it is aimed squarely at photographers - filmmakers can choose either the GH5 or GH5s. Panasonic threw everything but the kitchen sink in their GH* bodies. Read up on it. Nobody expects them to put 10-bit in their $1,000 camera bodies either. But I don’t know why you suddenly care about 10-bit anyhow. Sony’s a7 III didn’t hold back anything either: 693 AF points, headphone jack, larger battery, dual card slots, IBIS.... Manufacturing cameras, like any electronic goods, involves making decisions about which features to include and which to exclude. Panasonic’s philosophy has always been to give excellent value for money. Sony has followed the same course with the a7 III. And neither company has the audacity to foist a ten year-old outdated codec like MPEG for 4K like the 5D MK IV.

This is another priceless quote from that same interview:

Do you think that 4K video is a more important feature at the entry-level end of the market, or the enthusiast / professional segment?

We believe that 4K video is important for all market segments, and all users. Given that we have a range of products, we always have to think about how best [to implement 4K] in that class of camera. And you can do more with 4K video in a higher-end camera than in an entry-level model. [italics my own]

I suppose he’s referring to the 1.78x crop in 4K when the Mark IV was released. ? I think any unbiased observer could say that Canon only grudgingly added 4K to the camera, even as 4K is in full swing now.

[mercer]

C’mon now Jon, Panasonic doesn’t even give the all-i 1080p to any of their sub $1000 cameras. All companies have product tiers with more features in the higher tiered products.

The 5D4 is nearly two years old with the older processor. And to many, mjpeg is a solid codec that editing programs can cut like butter. Some of my favorite Panasonic videos were shot in mjpeg with the GH1/GH2 hacks.

I don’t really care what cameras people use. In fact, I love the competition these companies have. It only helps us. But this notion that Canon isn’t innovating or they’re holding back is ridiculous. They’re the first company to have fully manual video mode, first 4K DSLR, first 4K 60p DSLR, first company with usable video AF, first company to put a Log Profile in a DSLR... etc...

[noone]

I don't think it is that Canon holds back features in lower cameras any more than the others (give or take) but just that with 4k in particular, Canon has snookered itself and probably doesn't want the greater whinges that would surely come if one of the lower cameras got it better and earlier than some of the higher ones.

They SHOULD have had it in a couple of more recent cameras and then there would not be this discussion but because they have been later to the party they now have to catch up but want to do it in order.

I can not imagine any Canon mid to high end camera from now on wont have 4k and dual pixel but it makes sense to me to have crippled the M50 (but only because of 4k not being in anything much Canon)..

[jonpais]

I much prefer Panasonic’s business model, which gave both the GX85 and G85 IBIS even before the release of the GH5. 

[Mattias Burling]

It sounds like he is talking about size and price. The balance is, "sure we can put in anything you want but its gonna cost you and make it bigger. And that's not what this camera is about."

 

 

[jonpais]

But the M50 already has DPAF - it would have cost next to nothing to implement it in video as well. The executive even admitted that video DPAF was entirely possible. It would not have made the camera any larger. Where did you see that? Anyhow, the executive says point blank in the interview that video DPAF was purposefully withheld to protect the 5D Mk IV. This is in complete variance with other manufacturers like Panasonic, whose philosophy is to give the most value for the money. In other words, the consumer must shell out an additional $2,500 if they want a feature that is intentionally crippled in the lower end model. Not only that, but one of the most talked about features of Canon cameras.

20 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

It sounds like he is talking about size and price. The balance is, "sure we can put in anything you want but its gonna cost you and make it bigger. And that's not what this camera is about."

 

 

 

[Kisaha]

Market fragmentation is a very well documented concept, it applies to everything humam created, from shaving razors to spaceships.

Obviously there are small compact cars with basic safety tech that cost 10.000$€£ and Volvo's (admittedly the safest cars, they even have a pedestrian air bag!) that start from 30.000$€£.

Most of the modern safety features (except the aforementioned airbag) are just software implemented or having 1-2 sensors. Total real cost could be 10$ per car, but as an extra, each one costs from hundrends to the thousands.

I do not see anything weird here, only that Japanese can be very honest on their interviews, unlike western executives that always say what you want to hear, or what they want you to hear!

[jonpais]

15 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Market fragmentation is a very well documented concept, it applies to everything humam created, from shaving razors to spaceships.

Obviously there are small compact cars with basic safety tech that cost 10.000$€£ and Volvo's (admittedly the safest cars, they even have a pedestrian air bag!) that start from 30.000$€£.

Most of the modern safety features (except the aforementioned airbag) are just software implemented or having 1-2 sensors. Total real cost could be 10$ per car, but as an extra, each one costs from hundrends to the thousands.

I do not see anything weird here, only that Japanese can be very honest on their interviews, unlike western executives that always say what you want to hear, or what they want you to hear!

It’s way off topic, but you are tossing around a lot of numbers with no proof. And the automotive industry is completely different to the camera industry. For example, gov’t regulations anyone?

[Mattias Burling]

"The cost required to introduce [features like 4K] into cameras dictates the kind of features that we can introduce [in products of different classes]."

[jonpais]

The M50 has already got DPAF. 

[Kisaha]

All are products, market fragmentation is a concept very well documanted and applies to everything capitalistic in nature. Cameras are products, this is well on-topic.

Of course I respect Panasonic's attitude more.

[mercer]

15 minutes ago, jonpais said:

The M50 has already got DPAF. 

Yes in 1080p but I assume there may be an overheating issue with DPAF in 4K on such a small camera. Probably why there is a 4K video crop as well. 

[jonpais]

And I think that’s what this topic is all about - business models - not which manufacturer produces better cameras. 

57 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

All are products, market fragmentation is a concept very well documanted and applies to everything capitalistic in nature. Cameras are products, this is well on-topic.

Of course I respect Panasonic's attitude more.

 

51 minutes ago, mercer said:

Yes in 1080p but I assume there may be an overheating issue with DPAF in 4K on such a small camera. Probably why there is a 4K video crop as well. 

That sounds plausible enough, Glenn - but some reviewers speculated that the 1.78x crop in the 5D Mk IV was due to processor limitations too - so call me skeptical. And since someone here lauded Canon’s candor when compared to Western companies, if that were the case, why not come out and say the processing engine of the M50 would have to be beefed up? If I am to believe the Canon executive, 4K DPAF was entirely possible. Speculating about processors and overheating is really what I’d call reading between the lines. Are we also to assume that the DIGIC 8 processor of the M50 is somehow less powerful than the DIGIC 6+ of the Mark IV?

[Mattias Burling]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Yes in 1080p but I assume there may be an overheating issue with DPAF in 4K on such a small camera. Probably why there is a 4K video crop as well. 

And since the thread is mostly speculations one can also speculate that the crop, crops out focus points making the DPAF not as good as Canon wants.
Fixing all of it means a different bigger design, or another sensor which means more money.

The choice of sensor is probably like every other component. Weighted against how many they can use to get the cost down.
Its no coincidence companies tries to keep as much components the same. If they can use them in two-three generations they can bulk buy three times as many.

Blackmagic are experts at this. They reuse knobs, contacts, screens, etc across everything. Same components in cameras as studio equipment.

[jonpais]

Even if this thread were mostly speculation, which I don’t believe is the case, that is no justification for piling on yet more. “Look, the house is on fire! Let’s pour gasoline on it.”

36 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

And since the thread is mostly speculations one can also speculate that the crop, crops out focus points making the DPAF not as good as Canon wants.
Fixing all of it means a different bigger design, or another sensor which means more money.

The choice of sensor is probably like every other component. Weighted against how many they can use to get the cost down.
Its no coincidence companies tries to keep as much components the same. If they can use them in two-three generations they can bulk buy three times as many.

Blackmagic are experts at this. They reuse knobs, contacts, screens, etc across everything. Same components in cameras as studio equipment.

 

[Mokara]

8 hours ago, wolf33d said:

With DPREVIEW:

- The EOS M50 offers 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS AF, but not at the same time. Is there a technical reason for this limitation?

"With the EOS 5D Mark IV, we do offer 4K video and Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus, so technically it is feasible. But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV. Given the position of the product, we wanted to achieve the optimal balance [of features] in a camera in that range."

We all knew Canon was crippling its products. Now is another proof. How can they dare sell you completely crippled shits for so much money? And people buy that.
What a ridiculous company. I am speechless. 

That is not what they are saying at all. In order to shoot 4K and use DPAF the 5D4 needs to use MJPEG to reduce processor overhead to the point where it is feasibly. This in turn requires very high bit rates that the UHS-I slot would have trouble with, and that most likely is the "technical reason" they are referring to. The 4K shot with the M50 is done with hardware encoding, allowing much lower bit rates to be used. But, apparently that doesn't leave enough processor overhead to handle DPAF as well.

It is not deliberate crippling, it is just a consequence of the limitations of the processor.

At least some of the high end DSLRs include additional dedicated processors for focussing as well, it is possible that the M50 lacks that in order to cut costs.

[jonpais]

Sorry, but that is not what the interviewee says. He unmistakably says 4K DPAF is technically feasible (ie workable, achievable, realistic), but Canon doesn’t want to trample on the toes of the 5D Mark IV. The executive makes no mention of either hardware or software limitations. Canon has made it very clear for a long while now that professional videographers need to step up to one of their cinema cameras if they want 4K, exposure tools like waveform monitors and zebras, 4K HDMI out and decent codecs. It is the position of the product, otherwise known as marketing, that determines which cameras get what, and not feedback from filmmakers.