Red Copies Panasonic With New Dual ISO Camera

[DBounce]

Well the title pretty much says it all. It seems the latest trend is dual ISO and Red is now jumping onboard.

 

[mkabi]

You think Red copied it from Panasonic?

 

 

[DBounce]

32 minutes ago, mkabi said:

You think Red copied it from Panasonic?

 

 

Well a Panasonic has had it on the Varicams for years... so yes.

[IronFilm]

Copying Kinefinity as well! ;-) 

They too have dual ISO.

[Robert Collins]

Havent Sony had dual iso for years - at least back to the A7RII. Certainly seems like it from the numbers....

[IronFilm]

a7Rmk2 doesn't have dual native ISO

[noone]

I think even the first version Sony A7 cameras have dual ISO (A7s does anyway).

RED has had dual ISO for ages in some way or other.     Wasn't there a comparison video a couple of years ago about it?

[BTM_Pix]

Epic, Raven, Monstro, Scarlet, Weapon, Dragon, Helium and now Gemini.

I'm no fan of the boring naming convention of other cameras but that sounds like the lineup at an 80s heavy metal festival.

 

 

[MurtlandPhoto]

22 minutes ago, noone said:

I think even the first version Sony A7 cameras have dual ISO (A7s does anyway).

RED has had dual ISO for ages in some way or other.     Wasn't there a comparison video a couple of years ago about it?

I think there's some blending of terminology here. The Sony's have a base ISO in standard picture profiles and a different base ISO for log profiles, but this isn't dual native ISO.

In the past, Red cameras have used a technique for HDR by alternating ISO values every other frame, but again this isn't dual native ISO.

11 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Epic, Raven, Monstro, Scarlet, Weapon, Dragon, Helium and now Gemini.

I'm no fan of the boring naming convention of other cameras but that sounds like the lineup at an 80s heavy metal festival.

 

 

Or the American Gladiators 

[noone]

I am not so sure about this and I think with the Sony's, it is the same sort of thing (a dual or second base ISO if you like).      The video I am thinking of about the comparison with RED might have been about a blending of technologies but even then I think they have had that sort of thing for a while too.

If you look at Photons to Photos chart  you can see the change in DR at ISO 3200 for the A7s.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

 

[salim]

the new A7III has a dual ISO pathway: 

 

https://***URL removed***/articles/3389926460/sony-a7-iii-dynamic-range-and-high-iso-improve-over-its-predecessor

[MurtlandPhoto]

3 minutes ago, noone said:

I am not so sure about this and I think with the Sony's, it is the same sort of thing (a dual or second base ISO if you like).      The video I am thinking of about the comparison with RED might have been about a blending of technologies but even then I think they have had that sort of thing for a while too.

If you look at Photons to Photos chart  you can see the change in DR at ISO 3200 for the A7s.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

 

The chart shows the DR curve of the A7s in s-log. The native ISO of the A7s in s-log is 3200, so that explains the behavior there. 

I wish I had more hard data on hand, but anecdotally Panasonic have heavily marketed their dual native ISO tech in every camera they put it in. It is a big deal and a real selling point. Kinefinity has it and now so does RED, and they all market it heavily because it's a big deal. So, I doubt that Sony (or any company) would just stick this feature in there and not shout it from the rooftops.

5 minutes ago, salim said:

the new A7III has a dual ISO pathway: 

 

https://***URL removed***/articles/3389926460/sony-a7-iii-dynamic-range-and-high-iso-improve-over-its-predecessor

This is interesting and does seem to fit into the real definition of dual native ISO.

[Kristoferman]

I suppose I don't understand the snark? Is it just a general snark toward RED? Because as a consumer, I feel it benefits me to have options regarding dual iso cameras. The more companies that want to implement that technology, the better. 

[noone]

3 hours ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

The chart shows the DR curve of the A7s in s-log. The native ISO of the A7s in s-log is 3200, so that explains the behavior there. 

I wish I had more hard data on hand, but anecdotally Panasonic have heavily marketed their dual native ISO tech in every camera they put it in. It is a big deal and a real selling point. Kinefinity has it and now so does RED, and they all market it heavily because it's a big deal. So, I doubt that Sony (or any company) would just stick this feature in there and not shout it from the rooftops.

This is interesting and does seem to fit into the real definition of dual native ISO.

No, that chart is mainly about RAW stills and nothing to do with S-Log.

s-log uses the higher ISO 3200 setting as base but that doesn't mean the camera isn't using dual ISO (they might just call it something different).

What it means is if you are using s-log with the original A7s, you are using the second higher "base" ISO only but if you use one of the other settings besides s-log, you would use both if you went from an ISO under 3200 to over it in the same video.  No?

[MurtlandPhoto]

13 hours ago, noone said:

No, that chart is mainly about RAW stills and nothing to do with S-Log.

s-log uses the higher ISO 3200 setting as base but that doesn't mean the camera isn't using dual ISO (they might just call it something different).

What it means is if you are using s-log with the original A7s, you are using the second higher "base" ISO only but if you use one of the other settings besides s-log, you would use both if you went from an ISO under 3200 to over it in the same video.  No?

Ah I gotcha now. I thought the y axis on the chart literally meant log profile, but I see that it's actually referring to the curve of the chart itself.

 

I guess my sticking point is in the strict definition of native vs. base ISO. From what I understand, native ISO refers to where a camera performs best in regards to DR, highlight rolloff, and noise (debatable). Straying away from that native ISO, up or down, leads to a drop in that maximum quality. That's why dual native ISO is so powerful; it gives you another upper option for maximum quality. From what I've read there are two distinct circuitry pathways required to implement dual native ISO.

I could definitely be wrong, but I believe that some of these cameras are actually implementing a second base ISO. It will give some of the benefits, but not all of them. At this point I'm less confident in my opinion though, haha

 

[mkabi]

On 3/26/2018 at 10:56 PM, DBounce said:

Well a Panasonic has had it on the Varicams for years... so yes.

I could be wrong here. But the first I heard of Dual ISO is back in 2013 and it was implemented by Magic Lantern, a year later Varicam comes out. Now I'm not saying that they copied ML... but really... what is Dual ISO??? It really is a photography technique -> Bracketing.

If anything I blame RED for copying ML???

And if we are playing the blame game.... pretty much everyone is copying RED when they implement 4K. Because, when everyone was saying 1080p is the end game - RED was pushing the envelop saying 4K son! And, that was back in 2006.

[Attila Bakos]

 

17 minutes ago, mkabi said:

I could be wrong here. But the first I heard of Dual ISO is back in 2013 and it was implemented by Magic Lantern, a year later Varicam comes out. Now I'm not saying that they copied ML... but really... what is Dual ISO??? It really is a photography technique -> Bracketing.

If anything I blame RED for copying ML???

And if we are playing the blame game.... pretty much everyone is copying RED when they implement 4K. Because, when everyone was saying 1080p is the end game - RED was pushing the envelop saying 4K son! And, that was back in 2006.

That dual ISO mode ML implemented is not the same as having two native ISOs. The first one is basicly a kind of bracketing, the second one is two different circuits dedicated to a lower and a higher ISO, before gain is applied. These two native ISOs have about the same noise levels, which is obviously not the case with ML's dual ISO.

[Cinegain]

Looks like Canon counters! https://cvp.com/product/canon_eos_c700_ef?utm_source=mailshot&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email

[noone]

4 hours ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

Ah I gotcha now. I thought the y axis on the chart literally meant log profile, but I see that it's actually referring to the curve of the chart itself.

 

I guess my sticking point is in the strict definition of native vs. base ISO. From what I understand, native ISO refers to where a camera performs best in regards to DR, highlight rolloff, and noise (debatable). Straying away from that native ISO, up or down, leads to a drop in that maximum quality. That's why dual native ISO is so powerful; it gives you another upper option for maximum quality. From what I've read there are two distinct circuitry pathways required to implement dual native ISO.

I could definitely be wrong, but I believe that some of these cameras are actually implementing a second base ISO. It will give some of the benefits, but not all of them. At this point I'm less confident in my opinion though, haha

 

I guess it is just names/words.

The bottom line is they have two standard ISOs instead of the previous one.

That leads me to think if there will be cameras with three of more? (for shooting fully the same as in daylight after dark- IS any shutter speed and any aperture).

[IronFilm]

On 3/29/2018 at 2:49 AM, mkabi said:

And if we are playing the blame game.... pretty much everyone is copying RED when they implement 4K. Because, when everyone was saying 1080p is the end game - RED was pushing the envelop saying 4K son! And, that was back in 2006.

4K existed before RED