Z Cam E2 will have ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FPS in 4K??

[DBounce]

18 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Myth. No more than the major players. Ain't you the guy who had two Fuji units to come back to the warehouse? FYI BMD has the best service available you can find out there.

E : -)

Sure I had two Fuji's go bad on me. Fuji has local service. And I agree, BMD has great service. So while there may be reliability issues... as reported by many. At least they stand behind it, and you don't need to ship it to China. If domestic service means nothing to you, go right ahead, there are units in stock. 

[Emanuel]

29 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Sure I had two Fuji's go bad on me. Fuji has local service. And I agree, BMD has great service. So while there may be reliability issues... as reported by many. At least they stand behind it, and you don't need to ship it to China. If domestic service means nothing to you, go right ahead, there are units in stock. 

I don't have listened any other reliability issues than from people who have decided to stay outside the Blackmagic supply. They are actually who have reported and spread the idea this manufacturer is not reliable. Have you ever bought any BMD product or capture device to begin with? Do you have any experience along the Pocket 4K to testify they are not trustful for the subject matter BTW? 

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, DBounce said:

No doubt it will stay in stock if they have more than one. It's a hard reach to sell a bleeding edge camera with no domestic support. 

 

3 hours ago, DBounce said:

That just tells you they are not stocking many as the interest is sparse. 

You just find can't find it possible to say anything positive about Z Cam???

First you say they'll have plenty in stock as it won't sell, then when told that is not at all true, you say the opposite "oh there is no interest in it thus stock is low"

Just can't win with you....

[DBounce]

56 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

 

You just find can't find it possible to say anything positive about Z Cam???

First you say they'll have plenty in stock as it won't sell, then when told that is not at all true, you say the opposite "oh there is no interest in it thus stock is low"

Just can't win with you....

Not at all, I think they are worth keeping an eye on. Once they are a bit more established they might warrant consideration. But that’s my point of view. Yours may differ, and that’s OK too.

[DBounce]

3 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Have you ever bought any BMD product or capture device to begin with? Do you have any experience along the Pocket 4K to testify they are not trustful for the subject matter BTW? 

I owned a couple of original pocket cameras. They had nice imagery, but had many limitations also. 

I’m sure you have also heard stories of the P4k shutting down suddenly... or about swollen batteries... incompatibility with SSDs and other issues, such as corruption of drives... even those recommended by BMD.

There is no camera, no brand that I owe loyalty to. I buy all my gear, so I can speak freely about how I feel. Not only after purchasing, but also while considering purchasing. My experience has taught me to take a wait and see approach with BMD.

Also, I didn’t like how evasive the BMD people were at NAB. They were not exactly forthcoming, and honestly, they were the only manufacturers I spoke with at NAB that seemed this way. Panasonic was great. As were DJI, Tilta, Edelkrone and SLR Magic... all first rate. 

If I were to judge by customer experience, I would rank Edelkrone firmly ahead of the pack. Granted, they had some negative reviews of their motion kit... but it’s how they dealt with the issues that impressed me most... giving the old customers free upgrades to the newer version of the hardware. A lifetime warranty on all their gear... free accident coverage. Even free replacement. That’s exceptional service. 

[Emanuel]

I concur their communication and humbleness on the way they address their business counterparts can only improve. Their products don't owe anything to any other player out there today, though. Their service and support is above the average, well beyond actually to suit the quality of their gear and IQ. Time of their beginning in this market segment is past now. People tend to be stuck on the usual mantra, not a fair match for real to be honest.

I will even tell you something straightforward: their product seems more to follow the film standard trend than the delicate electronics of mirrorless toys, no matter the major manufacturer behind, maybe with the single exception of the upper range of Panasonic MFT line. Just distinct. You can't offer a weather-sealed device when you need to add good heat dissipation to. Where's their fragile entry then? Do a favor to everyone yourself included. Don't underestimate these people. The same for Chinese product. Never an entire reality has overcome and contributed for democratization of these arts & crafts. Quality wise too, not only features (E : -)

[majoraxis]

My experience with BMD has also been above average.  They swapped out my Pocket Camera when it had a sensor with a few stuck pixels, no questions asked.  As compared to the Panasonic service center when I sent my GH5 in for repair and they charged me while under warranty due to my GH5 having some minor cosmetic damage that had no effect on the issue I was having resolved.  Even if BMD was gaurded about the answers they gave on the NAB floor, I would rather have a company not make a promise they can’t keep then offer a 3-year warranty they won’t honor.

The GH5 is treated like a consumer product by Panasonic.  Blackmagic treats their customers as if they are professionals.

[sanveer]

1 hour ago, majoraxis said:

My experience with BMD has also been above average.  They swapped out my Pocket Camera when it had a sensor with a few stuck pixels, no questions asked.  As compared to the Panasonic service center when I sent my GH5 in for repair and they charged me while under warranty due to my GH5 having some minor cosmetic damage that had no effect on the issue I was having resolved.  Even if BMD was gaurded about the answers they gave on the NAB floor, I would rather have a company not make a promise they can’t keep then offer a 3-year warranty they won’t honor.

The GH5 is treated like a consumer product by Panasonic.  Blackmagic treats their customers as if they are professionals.

I had a similar experience as you. I am sure Panasonic has some great service in some places of the world. But I had a terrible experience and the after sales was absolute crap (including one in Adelaide and another in New Delhi). 

[thebrothersthre3]

Yeah smaller companies are often better. The huge companies just don't care because they don't have to. Not always the case obviously. 

[DBounce]

11 hours ago, majoraxis said:

My experience with BMD has also been above average.  They swapped out my Pocket Camera when it had a sensor with a few stuck pixels, no questions asked.  As compared to the Panasonic service center when I sent my GH5 in for repair and they charged me while under warranty due to my GH5 having some minor cosmetic damage that had no effect on the issue I was having resolved.  Even if BMD was gaurded about the answers they gave on the NAB floor, I would rather have a company not make a promise they can’t keep then offer a 3-year warranty they won’t honor.

The GH5 is treated like a consumer product by Panasonic.  Blackmagic treats their customers as if they are professionals.

Please understand, I'm not saying BMD has bad service. I'm simply saying that it's not uncommon for their products to launch with issues. For that reason I choose to wait until the bugs are ironed out.

I know that these are complex products. And often times are rushed to market ASAP. So, defects can slip through. This is exactly why I like domestic service to be offered on anything I buy that is critical. I'll keep an eye on Z Cam to see how it's panning out. I'm not desperate for yet another body, so I can wait. 

[thebrothersthre3]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EwZE4VEth8ri4YYDtqIozP9Xsg7PSX5g?fbclid=IwAR3C6M9YB3uAzsKTM6RjzbbgP76fjZtOHzbBqjKgPZ1C2KkuTjih0uMh-zU

They released footage comparing the Alexa to the Z Cam E2 in Zlog2. They claim it has better dynamic range then the Alexa. I haven't downloaded the footage yet, but let me know what you guys think. If its true, its pretty incredible. Zlog2 only works up to 30fps but still, this is a $2000 camera.

[webrunner5]

Pretty hard to judge something with a completely different point of view and aspect ratio, with no known reference cards! At least they are both in 1080p. ?

[androidlad]

E2 has more noise in the midtone/shadow than Alexa, the noise pattern is pleasant and monochromatic.

I was talking to E2 founder on Weibo and he was suggesting that the new Zlog2  is not based on Quad-Bayer HDR, instead it's based on a 14bit readout drive mode.

[KnightsFan]

I can't say this test is at all conclusive. Neither camera clips, so you can't really see what the DR limit is on either camera. It looks like the Arri keeps the highlights a little lower on the waveform, but the Z cam's waveform shadows are also at a higher level so it could just be an exposure difference. The different field of view and angle make it hard to tell. I'm still going with "everyone exaggerates by 2 stops except Arri" so 15 for Z Cam is really more like 13 (as measured by Arri).

I do think that the color on the Z Cam is phenomenal. The real conclusion is that the Z Cam's footage is really good enough for any cinematic purposes.

 

@webrunner5 they are both UHD

20 minutes ago, androidlad said:

E2 has more noise in the midtone/shadow than Alexa, the noise pattern is pleasant and monochromatic.

I can't say I agree. The Z Cam actually looks like it has less noise. Arri definitely has more chroma noise. However, the Z Cam's depth of field looks shallower, so they might have a faster lens and a lower ISO.

[androidlad]

36 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

I can't say this test is at all conclusive. Neither camera clips, so you can't really see what the DR limit is on either camera. It looks like the Arri keeps the highlights a little lower on the waveform, but the Z cam's waveform shadows are also at a higher level so it could just be an exposure difference. The different field of view and angle make it hard to tell. I'm still going with "everyone exaggerates by 2 stops except Arri" so 15 for Z Cam is really more like 13 (as measured by Arri).

I do think that the color on the Z Cam is phenomenal. The real conclusion is that the Z Cam's footage is really good enough for any cinematic purposes.

 

@webrunner5 they are both UHD

I can't say I agree. The Z Cam actually looks like it has less noise. Arri definitely has more chroma noise. However, the Z Cam's depth of field looks shallower, so they might have a faster lens and a lower ISO.

E2's noise looks finer, it's a native 4K sensor while the Alexa Mini is upscaled from 3.2K, I'd say there's no drastic difference in the amount of noise. To get a definitive answer we have to shoot a chart and use IMATEST. E2 does show a bit more chromatic banding in the shadow area (look closely on the leather couch surface).

One crucial piece of info is that E2 was shot using ISO160 (the lower native ISO), Alexa Mini was shot using EI800.

[AlexTrinder96]

28 minutes ago, androidlad said:

E2's noise looks finer, it's a native 4K sensor while the Alexa Mini is upscaled from 3.2K, I'd say there's no drastic difference in the amount of noise. To get a definitive answer we have to shoot a chart and use IMATEST. E2 does show a bit more chromatic banding in the shadow area (look closely on the leather couch surface).

One crucial piece of info is that E2 was shot using ISO160 (the lower native ISO), Alexa Mini was shot using EI800.

Just seen your post on FB! They Should have matched the iso and gone through the range! The colours looks really good though, for sure.

[KnightsFan]

Anyone know if the e2 was shot internally or not? Its a prores 422 file, i wonder if it was recorded internally or externally or transcoded.

[thebrothersthre3]

I would probably be happy with 13 stops of dynamic range. 1.4 higher then the BMP4K and still higher then the FS7 and Ursa Mini. Alexa equivalent dynamic range would be incredible though. Eagerly awaiting more news. 

[androidlad]

43 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

Anyone know if the e2 was shot internally or not? Its a prores 422 file, i wonder if it was recorded internally or externally or transcoded.

Internally with beta firmware.

[KnightsFan]

35 minutes ago, androidlad said:

Internally with beta firmware.

So it was recorded internally in ProRes or transcoded?